Strange Artifacts using 2023 Noise & Sharpening / Both (NoNoise + Tack Sharp AI)
As can be seen (hopefully) on my sample Kingfisher picture:
When I move the compare slider from right to left and No Noise + Tack Sharp AI (Noise & Sharpening / Both) are applied to the picture strange artifacts appear.
I have marked two sections with red rectangles, both show straight lined artifacts which are not in the groundlaying picture. In addition there appear 3 dark areas all of a sudden. Exporting the file results in the same artifacts.
The straight lines artifacts appear in several completely different pictures.
Decreasing the Tack Sharp AI Deblur down to something like 10 or 16 betters the situation but then sharpness is decreased severly as well.
Anyone else have these issues? 
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Here for a closer view of the line artifacts.
Seem to be rectangled areas which are processed (image processing algorithms) independently and then later sticked together.
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I reached out to technical help to the company directly.
They advised to "upgrade the driver" because "some users are reporting this is fixing ongoing issues".
I did.
I upgraded from 522.30 to 526.98 (which came out yesterday nov,16).
Both are studio drivers.
I did a "clean install" (as always), I did some other time wasting stuff.Nothing helped.
The results are always the same disappointing ones, many picture show artifacts after using Tack Sharp AI, sometimes even the black areas show up as I pointed out in my screenshots.
Fact is that there is only one help:
Using only Classic or NoNoise AI lets the picture undestroyed.
As soon as Tack Sharp AI is involved the artifacts show up and destroy the original picture (not the file of course but the content).I have compared this to output from Topaz DeNoise, Topaz Photo AI and Capture One 2023.
Even if I over exaggerate settings with denoising with these products no such artifacts show up.So my conclusion is that this is not related to driver issues but to algorithm and/or image processing routines used in your software.
Let's see what the reaction of the technical help is now after I said this is urgent and a no-go for the photography community since content of pictures is destroyed (not the file itself).0 -
Michael
I am sorry to say I have found Tack Sharp AI near useless, especially when compared with the Topaz products.
Regarding your image, you'd probably need to use layers and apply the sharpening only to the bird, whilst applying the denoising either to the entire image or to everything apart from the bird. Again, this is much easier done in Topaz, which has better masking etc.
Tack Sharp is just one of the many things awry with PR2023, a very disappointing release so far.
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Same here. Tack Sharp AI is pretty useless.
My workflow for many Kingfisher photos was to sharpen by using Topaz Sharpen AI as you pointed out.
ON1 2023 has some very good features but overall it seems it was brought to market much too hasty without doing enough QA. Sad experience so far, but still hoping that the next release brings improvements.0 -
Just so you know, your experience isn't the same for everyone. I use either tack sharp or Topaz sharpen on many of my photos. It's not 'which is better', they both have strengths and weaknesses. Of my photos that need sharpening, some work better with Topaz and some with Tack sharp. There isn't one that's better than the other.
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And just so you know, you didn't get the point of the initial posting.
It is about the fact that photo content gets DESTROYED when using Tack Sharp AI, and in contrast to that Topaz Labs and Capture One as examples do not destroy the content.
There is no other way than to use sharpening tools for hundreds of photos now unless the latest build brings improvements.0 -
For those that haven't updated yet today's update fixed much of what I was seeing with Tack Sharp.
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ON1 programs are non destructive. Nothing is being DESTROYED. The results may not be to your liking but that is a totally different matter. See how things are with today's update.
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I look forward to the update and glad On1 are so responsive. It's taking a long time to download.
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Don't download through the program. Go to the website and download it directly.`
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Brian Lawson, you should read through all the comments more precisly.
So I have to repeat from an earlier comment:
"As soon as Tack Sharp AI is involved the artifacts show up and destroy the original picture (not the file of course but the content)."As a fact I never said the file underlying the photo is destroyed, but you answered like I did.
Adding an ugly artifact to an image while processing it which way ever destroys the visual aspects of the image. Point.I will see if the latest build changes things to positive, the comments of moderators do not so far.
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The answers from Stevie where I reported the artifact bug were more sufficient and came in a more relaxed tone. So I unsubscribe from this thread because it becomes a bit annoying.
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Tried the latest update today. While it is faster in some respects and I have to say that I have to test out many more new features the artifacts still show up and destroy the picture content.
The artifacts are not the usual image processing artifacts that can show up when you adjust a parameter too high or low, e.g. bluring or edge bleeding, this kind of artifacts really destroys content because it moves parts of the picture and disruptsits consistency, often barely seen or too late seen (after already having exported and sent out a picture). But once you export a file and send it to a blog or a photo club the damage is already done.
This needs to be repaired asap.
The pictures I attach show clerarly that image content is moved or reseated wrongly.
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Here another example from a completely different photo session.
You can see the artifact when moving the slider more inside the picture.
This was one of the pictures I exported and sent out to a friend (so no damage done) and found out later that the aritfacts have shown up, they were barely seen on a first look. I later discovered them when I wanted to optimize the picture more after the first run with NoNoise and TackSharpAI.
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This is the picture how you see it when you do a NoNoise and TackSharpAI (both) for a first round.
There are many artifacts (lines with content moved) to be seen once you know what to look for.
Have never seen this with other picture processing software.
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Here one example from the picture above.
Clearly a no-go for an image processing software.
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As a positive note:
Super Select AI was improved severly.
I now get Kingfishers selected in usable ways in several hundreds of photos which did not work before.As I told Stevie over in the tech support ON1 is in many aspects top of the art but the artifacts are still a no-go.
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You keep saying destroyed. Nothing is being destroyed. If you don’t like the results, just go back to using the Classic mode and all the artifacts will go away. I also recommend not accepting the defaults the program used. Set the sliders yourself. It takes a very light touch.
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I keep saying destroyed because it is a matter of fact.
When you export an image that has artifacts in it (like the lines and patterns shown in the pictures above) that come out of nowhere the content was destroyed. Fact.
However I am thinking about reaching out to photography blogs and bloggers about this to give me a more neutral view on this as you are not capable to do by ever repeating "nothing is being destroyed".0 -
No it isn’t a matter of fact. If you set the Tack Sharp sliders to zero all of the artifacts go away. When something has been destroyed it is no longer useable or recoverable. You can in fact remove the artifacts which were introduced. Adjust the sliders or use a different method of sharpening. I prefer the sharpening in NoNoise AI over Tack Sharp.
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I levelled the TS AI Deblur to 0 and the artifacts is still there.
It is a barely seen long vertical line in the image.
Exporting this damages/destroys/alters (name it like you wish) the original image information.
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Doing the exact same with only NoNoise AI (setting Enhance detail to 0) does NOT bring this artifact.
Conclusion:
There is something wrong with the algorithms/memory handling when Tack Sharp AI is involved when even setting it to 0 brings an artifact.
Let's see if developers who understand the matter bring up a solution.0 -
Michael, I'm not trying to be arguementative, I want to help. I also want for other readers of this thread to not come away with the wrong idea because they interpret destroyed the same way I do and thereby getting a false impression of the program and its features.
Does Tack Sharp need some work? Absolutely! And I'm sure it will get better with time. Look at how poorly Sky Swap started out compared to how will it performs now.
The Micro Sharpening slider is where I've found most of the undesirable artifacts come from. Also, in my opinion, the Tack Sharp AI Deblur slider is set way too high by default. When I use Tack Sharp I reset all sliders to 0 which effectively turns it off. Then I apply the Deblur slider in small increments until it starts to introduce its artifacts and I back it off a bit. Then I do the same with the Micro Sharpening slider.
For some images I do not get good results at all so I go to either Classic mode or I use the sharpening built into NoNoise AI. It can be used without using the noise removal feature.
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Believe me I want to help either. Nothing else.
I have more than 30 years experience with software development on system level, c++, multi-threading et al.
Software is as complex as never before and memory handling is becoming ever more culprit for software.
That said I agree with you that the TS AI Deblur slider is set far too high as per default.
I always level down to the 10-30 range. Most of the time 10-16 becomes a good setting for the kind of photos I make.
Now that Super Select AI works much better in this release I really only want to help as much as possible in finding development issues in this software. I really like ON1 over many of its competitors.
Let's finally agree on this: your developers need to take a deep look into this matter, it should help that even TS AI Deblur set to 0 generates an unwanted artifact no matter how visible it is, but it is there, I was astonished as well when I saw this. Something weird in the background most likely regarded to memory handling/management could go on. This needs to be investigated to make a very good software even better.
Peace.0 -
Michael, I am not sure why you want to sharpen the background of the kingfisher (which is nicely out of focus) or the sea and sky in the other shots. I think the artefacts are coming in because you are applying something that's inappropriate.
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Ray, I do not want to sharpen the background. But this photo started it all when I found about the artifacts. So I took it as one of the examples I sent over to technical support to Stevie. It is just about technical things not the photo editing itself, but many thanks for reaching out about this to me.
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Michael, could you upload your images to Dropbox or WeShare, so others can take a look at them. It could be that your problems are GPU-specific. (I am on a Mac).
Love the kingfisher image by the way. I have never had a long enough lens to get decent results. But have now bought a 10-400mm. No kingfishers where I live though.
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Ray, I am in contact with tech support and have sent them over sample pictures. This is atm sufficient for me. I will eventually come back later re your offer and send some pictures over to you. However I can send you a processed Kingfisher picture for now, just smaller than original. But this picture has nothing to do with the artifacts issue. :-)
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Michael, I am not in your league! Just a casual photographer.
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That's a great shot.
I would be interested in trying the photo where you are seeing the artifacts with the sliders set to 0. I've got an M1 Mini and would like to try to reproduce the issue. If Ray or I cannot duplicate the problem that would be valuable information for tech support to pass along to the engineers.
You should also know that the people you talk to here, even the moderators, are not ON1 employees. We are just other users like yourself. FWIW 😀
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