Unsatisfying user experience with On1 Photo Raw 2023
[edit] This post is rather to share my latest (PR2023) experiences with other users. Possibly helpful for those experiencing the same problems. All problems were already reported to the On1 tech support. We'll see, if/when they will be addressed. Some of the issues did already cary on over a major version release. [/edit]
Hi, after installing On1 Photo Raw 2023 I did spend quite a few hours with it. Unfortunately 10 out of 10 hours I were filing bugs an other problems. No pictures edited. In risk of being an unappropriated post, here my list of reported (an not so much solved) problems:
Set up:
* Photo Raw 2023 (17.0.0.12912)
* Window 10
* 32 GB RAM, Intel i5 8300hGeneration
* Graphics: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1050
driver version up-to-date: 517.40
* Dual Monitor (1920x1080 + 2556x1440)
* Pictures from a Panasonic G81 (G85 in other countries)
* Pictures from a Canon PowerShot S120
1) Cannot convert previous settings
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On first start:
Error message: The data for the previous version of ON1 Fotoeinstellungen could not be converted to the new version. If you have a previous version of ON1 software running, please close it an run the new version again.
There was no previous version (2022.5) running!
After rebooting windows and starting ON1 Photo RAW 2023 againg, seems OK.
2) Crash on scanning folder with new pictures
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On1: Generated new cataloged folder foo
Windows-Explorer: copied file from another cataloged folder into foo
On1: navigated to foo; scanned for new files; crashed
After dirver update: ocassionally crashes remain
3) Moving Raw + JPG leaves JPG behind
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* Pictures in a cataloged folder with combined RAW and JPG files.
E.g. P1470517.RW2 and P1470517.JPG
* Create an empty folder foo somewhere else
* File > Group RAW plus JPG is activated
* Mark files with pick (heart) or reject (x) flag
* In the quick filter menu at the bottom of the browse window filter for
picked (heart) or rejected (x) picture
* Select the filtered pictures
* Drag and move the files to foo while holding down the shift key
* Only the RAW files are moved to the destination
* The JPG files remain in the source folder
Expected results: JPG, RAW and sidecar files are moved in unison.
Workaround: first move the RAW files, then move the JPG files
Side effect: At times, the files that were moved still show up in the source folder.
Workaround of the side effect: Leave the folder and enter it again.
Side effect: Same problem, when sorting with stars or colors and filtering for them.
After driver update: missbehaviour still remains
4) quick filter equal zero star rating shows pictures with all ratings
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* Pictures in a cataloged folder
* Apply ratings from 0 to 5 stars
* In the quick filter menu at the bottom of the browse window filter for
equals zero stars
or
less than or equal zero stars
* All pictures are shown
=> The expectation is, that only the pictures with zero stars are shown.
After driver update: missbehaviour still remains
5) Colour label drop down menu does not disappear
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The Colour label drop down menu does not disappear, when clicking on other pictures.
How to reproduce
* Have a folder of pictures (*.jgp)
* Browse mode
* Click on the colour label icon on top of the preview (accidentally)
The colour label drop down menu appears
* Click somewhere else
* Expected: The colour label drop down menu disappears
* => Actually: The colour label drop down menu appears again, where clicked.
Workaround: Hit the escape key.
Note: This bug was already in ON1 Photo RAW 2022.5
After driver update: missbehaviour still remains
6) Sky Swap with transparent buildings
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Syk Swap AI seems to have problems with buildings, when the sky and the building have a similar tonality. The mask should be rahter simple, but the buildings facade or the rooftops are masked transparent. Not nearly sufficient.
I do rather use Sky Swap AI to easily get a mask for editing the sky in Local. But currently this is a hit and miss and therefore rahter useless :-/
Look at the *_SkySwap.jpg-Pictures in ... to get an idea what it looks like. Raw files are provided as well.
I would happily provide sample images. But you already have them :-(
Note: This bug was already in ON1 Photo RAW 2022.5
After driver update: missbehaviour still remains
7) Creating new folder and moving selected file leaves JPGs behind
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* Folder with combined RAWs and JPGs.
* Group RAW plus JPG active
* Apply a keyword to some of the files
* Filter for the keyword
* Select one or more files
* Right click on the file(s)
* Add subfolder
* Check Move Selected Items into Subfolder
* Click OK
* Have a closer look into the source and destination folder.
* Destination folder: RAW files were moved.
* Source folder: JPGs remain, were not moved.
Expected behaviour: RAWs and JPGs werde moved together.
Workaround: Use different tool for culling photos.
Workaround with ON1: select the JPGs and move them manually to the destination folder.
8) All files shown after Add Subfolder + moving
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Yet another one from the browse section. This time I added a few fancy screen shots.
* Folder with combined RAWs and JPGs.
* Group RAW plus JPG active
* Apply a keyword to some of the files
* Filter for the keyword
* Select one or more files
* Right click on the file(s)
* Add subfolder
* Check Move Selected Items into Subfolder
* Click OK
* In the example
* Only the RAW files were moved
* JPG files remained in the source folder
* Only the not moved JPG files should be shown in the source folder
* Actually all remaining pictures were shown, despite the still active filter
Expected behaviour: RAWs and JPGs werde moved together.
Expected behaviour: only the files that match the filter are shown
Workaround: Use different tool for culling photos.
Workaround with ON1:
* Disable the filter and find the JPGs to be moved.
* Select the JPGs and move them manually to the destination folder.
Errors:
* Looks to me, that the JPGs do not obtain the keyword and thus are handled differently from the RAWs.
* When moving the files, the filter does not apply to the source directory.
20221014_On1_AddNewFolder_002.jpg
20221014_On1_AddNewFolder_003a.jpg
9) Panorama from RAW worse than panorama from JPG worse than panoramas from HUGIN
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I do like the idea, to be able to merge the RAW files in On1 Photo Raw and have the possibility to manipulate the panorama with the benefits of the full color depth of the RAW files. Unfortunately in my experience it does not work like this.
Merging a panorama from RAW files using the On1 Photo Raw panorama tool, the output may be to bad to be used further on. I've experienced this with multiple panoramic shots, but here an example.
* On1 Photo Raw panorama with RAW files stitches only 4 of 6 images and creates a strong dark vertical band.
* On1 Photo Raw panorama with JPG files stitches only 5 of 6 images and creates a weak dark vertical band.
* Hugin panorama photo stitcher with JPG files stitches all 6 of 6 images and creates a no visible dark vertical band.
How to reproduce:
* Download files from <dropbox link on request>
* Use On1 Photo Raw panorama with the RAW files
* Use On1 Photo Raw panorama with the JPG files
* Use Hugin panorama photo stitcher with the JPG files
Results:
* 20220414_FFM_AlteOperBlueten_004.compared.jpg shows the stitching artifacts.
* 20220414_FFM_AlteOperBlueten_004.comparedHugin.jpg compares all three pictures.
Workaround:
* Forget about the On1 Photo Raw panorama tool.
* Process the RAW-files beforehand. Batchprocess all RAW-files to be stitched.
* Export JPG or TIFF-files
* Use Hugin or another tool to stitch the panorama.
10) ON1 Photo RAW Log.txt is becoming huge
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I wondered why my hard disk becomes becomes so stuffed full. Guess what, ON1 Photo RAW Log.txt takes part in this. On my system it is round about 17 GB large. I strongly suggest to limit the size of the log-file ot a certain amount. Like e.g. a few MB.
11) Browse cache uses an excessive amount of storage space
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The browse cache uses an excessive amount of storage space.
* The browse cache occupies about 91 GB on my hard drive which i consider quite excessive, since
* Two cataloged folders contain 255 GB worth of pictures.
I am afraid, the browse cache becomes even more inflated, since my CPU is running foll throttle, whenever On1 Photo Raw is open.
No, I cannot send the ON1 Photo RAW Log.txt, it already is larger than 17 GB.
What is the setting Preferences > System > Browse Cache for? It is set to 5000 MB at the moment.
Any change, that I can clean my hard drive, without uninstalling On1 Photo Raw?
Kind regards, Mike Fink.
12) Deinstallation Incomplete
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After a frustrating user experience with On1 Photo Raw 2023 I did unistall it from my computer to free up some storage space. Unfortunately even this leaves lots to be expected.
* C:\Users\mike\AppData\Roaming\ON1 still holds 10 GB of data in the *2023 directories.
* The PerfectBrowseCache increased to over 100 GB. Only for the reason, that I did stop it from generating even more caching data. SideNote: Cache was limited to 5 GB and the cataloged folders contained at the very best about 266 GB.
This stuff remains to be deleted manually. No option to be set in the uninstall routines :-/
Can I free some more 10th of GB? Did I miss something?
Guess, that's it then. Maybe see you around when On1 Photo Raw 2024 appears.
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The Cache size slider has nothing to do with the PerfectBrowseCache which will grow to be as large as needed to store all the Preview images for all the photo you have Cataloged. The Cache size slider controls the size of a Browser cache used for images which have NOT been catalogued. The Knowledge Base has an article which explains how all of this works. It's at Catalogs and Caches - ON1 Photo RAW 2022 & ON1 PHOTO RAW 2021.
Yes, the uninstaller does leave pieces behind in your user data. That is so you can still migrate your old data to the new version should you have to Reset the program after removing the previous version.
You have a 6 year old, entry level graphics card and you are running an i5 processor. Things are going to be slow. A newer, faster graphics card would improve performance noticeably.
There are other steps you can take to improve performance. While this post is aimed at Mac users, towards the end I have posted performance improvement tips which apply regardless of the OS you use. They are near the end of the page.
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Also Mike, you should know that you are not talking to the company here. We are just other users who try to help those with problems. The company rarely responds here. You should be reporting all this to tech support.
How to submit a problem to ON1 Tech Support - A Step-by-step Guide
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Hello Brian, thanks for taking your time to reply to my rahter "rantish" post up there. Much appreaciated. I do understand, that this is a user forum, Yes, all issues described above were already reported to the On1 tech support. With mixed results. Though, I did get a relatively long answer about the uninstall process.
Regarding my systems spec. Yes, it is a few years old. And I totally understand, that my hardware is not lightning quick when having tons of settings, presets and layers applied or using the AI-tools for selecting, masking and son on. But honestly, panning and zooming into a picture is really 1990th stuff (especially on 16 MegaPixels). This should be nice and smooth with the on CPU graphics card already... But I do not think, that the discussion between the two of us will progress Photo Raw any further. Anyhow, I am still confident, that the software quality of On1 Photo RAW still leaves a lot to desired.
Interesting read regarding the Catalogs and Caches. Thanks for the link. I'll check the performace settings. But this does not explain why the PerfectBrowseCache went berserc on my installation and produced cache folder bigger then the folder with the originals. I guess, I'll have to suggest to the On1 people, that the PerfectBrowseCache should have a limitation slider as well. No point in having the system drive completely clogged up.
Thanks again for your reply and hopefully we are looking into a brighter future of On1 Photo RAW...
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Good morning Mike,
I can't address your concerns over the size of the PBC on your system. There are too many variables we haven't covered. You can always trash it and let the program rebuild it if you believe it is larger than it should be.
I'm sorry I forgot to post the link to the article on performance improvements I mentioned above. Here it is. https://on1help.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/10211768923149-MacBook-Pro-Performance-Issue
Here is how I have my system configured (this is from the article I linked.)
I'm using a 1st gen M1 mini and I do not experience these problems. I have however, optimized my system for Photo RAW's performance. These tips are just as valid for Windows systems as Macs of any flavor.
I have my photos on a separate SSD connected through a hub. This has multiple benefits. It reduces the space needed on your boot drive. It keeps photo file reading I/O on its own drive so the program doesn't have to wait as long when reading and writing to the disc because some other program is using the boot drive at the moment. It also makes it easy to move to a new machine when your current system dies or needs to be replaced. Pull the drive from the old machine, add it to the new machine and you're back in business.
I have a separate, fast SSD that is dedicated to ON program Scratch spaces (Photo RAW and the individual plug-ins) and Photo RAW's Perfect Browse Cache. The Scratch space is used when your system starts running out of memory for Photo RAW. If you run out of disc space to hold it the program will crash. Putting it on its own drive gives you plenty of room to grow. It also reduces disc I/O as described above. It's more important here than in reading a photo file. This drive should have its own direct connection to the computer. You don't want it sharing an I/O cable with another drive or daisy chained together. The same for connecting it through a hub; you'll wind up sharing the same I/O channel again. Mine uses one of the Thunderbolt 3 ports on the Mini.
The PerfectBrowseCache is where the cataloging system stores the previews of your Cataloged images. It will continue to grow in size as your photo library grows. Putting on the drive with the Scratch space insures plenty of room for growth and reduces the need for space on the boot drive at the same time.
If you do not use catalogs and you browse large numbers of files (this is especially true for those who insist upon placing thousands of files into 1 folder!) there is a limited amount of cache space used to hold the previews for the images you are browsing. As the cache fills it must be emptied to make room for new previews. As an image scrolls onto the screen its preview must be pulled from the cache or it has to be rendered and added to the cache for future use. This all takes time, especially when they must be rendered first.
As you scroll through the files and the cache fills room has to be made for the images being currently viewed. Images in the cache for the longest time are removed. If you scroll up and down through a huge folder of images you can wind up rendering the same images again and again. This will definitely show up as a slow, bogged down system. This is what the Cache Size slider in Preferences > System > Performance controls. Of course a larger cache size means more disc space is needed.
To that I would add that when editing your photos DO NOT leave the Presets panel open any longer than is needed to select the one you want to use. After is has been applied collapse the panel so all those previews don't have to be re-rendered with every edit you make and especially with every brush stroke you paint into your masks. The same goes for the Filmstrip although to a much lesser degree.
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Mike, the PBC will be much smaller if you select either the Medium or Minimal preview size options when setting up your catalogues. These are described in the article on caches that Brian has given you a link to. There are some compromises that go with either option, particularly in rendering time, but even the Medium preview size option can result in a significant reduction in the PBC.
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Mike, I am running a similar setup to yours on a laptop, the only difference is an i5 8550 and 16 gig ram. It does struggle with 2023 with the CPU going full blast and it does run hot, but, it runs.
I can do all the things on it that my desktop machine but it just takes longer. I did try the latest driver and on my system it got very ugly so I switched back to 471.41, I'm not sure the newer drivers do anything for 1050s.
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