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Ongoing Stability and Performance Issues

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16 comments

  • Vinny Giannino

    I can't help with the JPEG issue unless you are saving the export in another file type other than a JPEG, a JPEG should be a JPEG. Is it possible that the file is too big? Resize may be kicking in. Maybe totally remove ON1 and reinstall. I have had updates have a glitch and a total removal and reinstall fixed the issue. It could also be the MLS system - can you read the files on another program?

    In RAW, go to the settings and make sure you have the VRAM settings adjusted correctly. I have an 8Gb card and when it was set to 50% usage it was horrible, bumped it up to 80% and it works great. Don't forget to check/uncheck the boxes as that affects things too.

    I haven't used a NVidea card in a couple of years but I used to go into that software and under 3D point it to RAW and that seemed to help. You don't mention what type of CPU you are using but if it is a Ryzen you can go into Windows performance and tell it to use Ryzen Performance -  you find it under "power and sleep" then "additional power settings".

    One other thing, you say that your drive is solid state which is great but if you have only 1 drive and it is running the OS, program, reading and writing changes and being used as a scratch disk - that also may be a problem. Spinning drives are slow but they are great for storage, SSD drives are faster and are good and then there are PSIe drives which are lightning fast (bus speed fast) that blow the doors off of SATA drives. If you are doing a lot of work on the photo especially with layers, that file (assuming raw files) will get huge. If you have a large Mpix camera that adds to the file size as well. My computer is about 2 1/2 years old, It has an older AMD RX 580 Video card, 32 Gb memory and 3 drives - the data drive which is spinning, a SATA SSD for scratch and a NVMe PCI for the OS and program. I did get the Ryzen 3700X CPU due to it's multicore performance. My camera is 24 Mpix so the file doesn't start out too large but I have seen it it get pretty large when doing a lot of work on the file and adding layers.

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  • Fred Pais

    Hey Vinny,

    First and foremost, many thanks for the detailed suggestions and opinions.
    I use the SSD as my main drive (C:) for the program and OS. Actually, I have 3 other drives, primarily for backup and storage. In the machine is a 1Tb WD, and outside a WD 4Tb, and another recent 6Tb USB 3.0 HD.

    I agree about the JPG images but this is so weird. I suspect it is some glitch in the MLS process, but they are certainly not going to explore or change a thing. I expect I am the only one who ever complained, Again this is restricted to the MLS in our locale and the fact I am a real estate photographer using ON1 compared to others. The JPG thing means I have to use competitor software. The output ON1 image will also work if it is run thru any other program, first Input then output with even a simple application like Paint.

    I will check a few things you mentioned and reverify what is set. I do have a Canon R5 so the output in full RAW is about 55Mb or so typically before I start to edit. I know the application is loading up as I edit as it hesitates and as mentioned, other software including Afinity Photo, Skylum Luminar, DxO Photolab just to name a few, and have tried RAWTherapee, and InPio to name a couple. None have I ever noticed an issue close to this. I will say, the R5 with 45Mp did replace my Canon RP with 26Mp where a lot of those apps were used.

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  • Lou Gross

    I have a couple of clients that are realtors.  I went onto one of their systems and looked at a photo that was downloaded directly from their MLS.  It was a JPG but the size was 97,791 bytes.  That seems much smaller than the files you were talking about. Of course it is a different MLS than the one you are using.  However there are only a few companies that make MLS software so maybe your MLS is using the same program that is used in this client's area (Corelogic).  If so, I can send you the photo and you can compare the JPG header. 

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  • Vinny Giannino

    Just some thoughts Fred,

    I think the problem with JPEG is a MLS problem since you're able to see the JPEG in other programs. Unless your JPEG files are larger than what they can handle. Remember that a JPEG of a JPEG might become smaller due to compression. Not sure how your other programs are set up.

    USB drives are slow, even USB 3.1. They are good for external storage but not working on a photo. You are going to get bottle necking of data, so if you are working off of the external drives that may be a problem.That may also be the cause of the crash you are talking about but IDK. Listening to people on MACs that have very small HD compared to Windows machines it sounds like they bring the photo onto their internal hard drive, do whatever to the photo and then put it back onto the external drive. This is with using LR, not many people use ON1 it seems.

    I will assume you put the ON1 settings at 80% and told NVidea to have ON1 use it exclusively for 3D (assuming that is still in the program). My 8 Gb card at 4 Gb (50%) was very sluggish at 80% 6 Gb it is fine. Also, I did turn off Keyword AI because I felt it was using too many resources and I don't use it.

    Your camera is sending huge files to ON1 and I hate to say it ON1 may not be able to handle it based on your hardware. I have Affinity Photo, Capture One, DXO and they don't act the same as ON1. An 8 Gb video card may work well for a 25 Mb file but it may not work for a 55 Mb file. I just looked at one of my layered images made with my 24 Mpix camera and just 2 layers it was 210 Mb and the final JPG was 9.9 Mb. At 2x the file size that 210 Mb could be 420 Mb ... I'm not sure what your doing to your photos so maybe this is higher than you are doing. Listening to some architectural photographers they spend time in layering, slight HDR and dodging and burning which could add a lot to a file.

    I might be off base on all my thoughts but these are the things I'm thinking of. I bought my current computer 2 1/2 years ago because ON1 was sluggish with my then computer, everything else worked great. I added more memory and the PCIe drive just to do it. At this point I have no issues with ON1 but that's not to say that at some point in the future things will change.

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  • Carl Traub

    A number of years back, my company was working with BMP files.  We ran into issues because we were creating files using old code, and the files that were using a format so old that Windows 7 computers couldn’t read them when it came out.  I’m wondering if something similar may be happening.

    I downloaded an EXIF information tool (the Windows version) from https://exiftool.org/

    The tool isn’t intuitive – you need drag your JPEG file onto the EXE , and then it opens a dialog listing the information.  You may need to scroll in the window to see all data.

    The files created by PR have a JFIF version of 1.01.

    JFIF stands for JPEG Interchange Format. Thus, the JFIF version can be found in JPG or JPEG files only. It is a standard to define JPEG image files.

    From:  https://www.metadata2go.com/file-info/jfif-version

    There have been different JFIF Versions over the years:

    • JFIF Version1.00 (original version)
    • JFIF Version 1.01 (1991)
    • JFIF Version 1.02 (1992)
    • JFIF Version 2. (ca. 2014)

    I copied a random image from the  MLS site, and it also showed as JFIF version 1.01, so simple versioning doesn't appear to be the issue.  However, the PR created JPEG has many more EXIF fields populated than the one from the MLS; 98 vs 49.  The block of data is much larger, 5046  vs 2492 bytes - I simply copied the output from the tool into a text editor.  You could check with the MLS to ask them to try loading one of your images. Maybe the block of EXIF data is bigger than they are expecting, and causing a problem.

    I don't have access to many other editing tools to check their EXIF data sizes.

     

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  • Fred Pais

    Carl, somewhere during the troubleshooting with their agent, I believe they may be using JFIF 1.01. That seems to ring a bell. Our MLS is called MLS PIN in our area. They are all different and totally independent from one another. I tried different sizes and even dpi resolutions and nothing seemed to matter. In my trials, the images got so small the real estate agent started to have issues printing marketing material. I believe was finally able to use PNG. Unfortunately due to the market in the last 6 months, I have had no new work to try it out again. I could always go back to DxO Photolab or Exposure X7 for real estate purposes should this start to come back again. 
    Most important in my research is to fix, if possible, performance issues with Photo RAW.

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  • Justin Martin

    Hi Fred,

    As a windows user, I wish I could offer more help, but I have my own tale of woe with ON1.

    I have been an active user since the Effects days and have always enjoyed using the software, I was just never ready to make the permanent switch. Last March, I gave serious consideration to dumping Lightroom, but PR performance for me was abject (there is quite a long thread in these forums on this topic). Images were taking ~10 secs give or take to load. The ones I submitted to Support as evidence, I was told that this was to be expected as I had used NoNoise AI. TBH, even if I didn't use NoNoise, they still took about 8 seconds to load. Needless to say, I didn't move over. My laptop is no slug either. 11th gen Intel, 32GB RAM, 6GB RTX 3060 card and two SSD's.

    When 2023 was released, I decided to take the plunge and migrate my 26k photos over. Performance was adequate for a while, but about 2 weeks ago it started to become an issue again. Any photos that say had two or three local adjustments (maybe a couple of effects), it became unusable. The lag was so slow on the brush, I could barely mask anything. Having to constantly undo then reapply. The fans on my laptop sound like a jet about to take off and remain that way until I shutdown PR.

    This week I tried to address the performance issue and followed a number of steps outline in other posts. I completely uninstalled PR and removed all traces of it from my laptop, including the registry. Reinstalled PR, ensured it was setup in Windows to use the graphics card etc.

    It was far worse!

    When I opened ON1, it came up fine and displayed the learning hub. When I selected not to show the learning hub at startup, it just closed silently with no error. I was stuck for ages trying to sort this out including deleting and reinstalling PR many times.

    I finally figured if I clicked on a folder before the Learning hub displayed, I could actually use PR. After much fiddling (and I'm not sure what I did in the end), the Learning Hub finally stopped displaying at startup.

    Performance was no better and the lag on masking was still there. Even today, I had PR open, left to take a phone call, when I came back it had crashed again and I wasn't even doing anything. There have been other small issues as well including PR randomly deleting some images that I had to restore from a backup.

    Outcome. I've reinstalled Lightroom and am in the process of fixing up my catalogue and will use that going forward again. I will continue to use PR as a plugin but will likely limit upgrades to every second year now.

    I'm disappointed, but it has cost me so much time and wasted effort.

     

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  • Carl Traub

    Fred,
    The block of data I was referring to is embedded within the header of the JPEG. If that data is causing the issue, the resolution of the image wouldn't matter. It's possible that either the size of that data or something specific within it is causing problems. There are tools that will allow the editing of the EXIF data, but I don't know whether they affect the size of the block data.  It may be something worth experimenting with if you're up for it.


    Fred and Justin,
    I had performance problems even worse than what you are describing a few years ago , starting with PR 2019 and 2020. Making any brush action would essentially freeze my PC for 3 -5 seconds; the mouse wouldn't even respond. It would often crash or lock up completely. My system showed very low CPU , GPU, and disk usage while these issues were happening.  It wasn't until I disabled cataloging that I was able to use PR at all. It may be worth trying that to see if it helps.

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  • Justin Martin

    Hi Carl,

    Thanks for the tip and I'll try that out. I can't return to ON1 as my primary tool though as for me, it is just too unstable. As an add-in it will be fine. 

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  • Brian Lawson Community moderator

    1. Have you talked to the support folks at MLS about this? What is MLS? Have you tried comparing the same image exported from one of your other programs against one produced by Photo RAW? I would concentrate on the metadata in the files.

    2.You'll have to wait for a Windows expert for help here, sorry.

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  • Rick Sammartino Community moderator

    Sorry, windows expert can't help either. Don't have any idea what MLS is or why there would be compatibility issues. You'll need to talk to either ON1 or MLS tech support about this.

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  • Fred Pais

    Sorry, I didn't catch that. I am/was primarily a real estate photographer. MLS stands for Multiple Listing Services. Each area has its own or a common one for a region. The one I am involved here takes care of a couple of states, especially Massachusetts. As mentioned no other program has an issue providing JPG images that are not accepted by this MLS, only Photo RAW (regardless of the version). Since I am in real estate which is a small percentage, perhaps, of photographers, and even smaller who use ON1 as opposed to Adobe for example, then it is not an important priority apparently. I have brought this up to ON1 on several occasions. At best, they will evaluate it if more complaints or fix it at some future update as they couldn't find any issue. I have spent hours on this and burdened a few agents. So today, I again start looking at similar features from another editing software provider, perhaps Lightroom.

    Thanks for the replies.

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  • Fred Pais

    One other issue noted before this writing, I had an image on the screen that was finalized and exported in the original format of RAW, JPG, and even PNG. The resulting outputs produced a half-edited image which wasn't finished, totally contrary to the screen. Then the PC just dumped the program altogether, with no warning, and no ability to provide the problem to ON1.

    The good: After trying a dozen different programs starting with Cyberlink Photodirector in 2015, I have felt that ON1 Photo RAW offers the best feature-to-value ratio and have refused to use Photoshop. I just feel there must, like others, have a better way to utilize the available memory since this is a "pro" application. I just can't stand using it under these conditions.

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  • Fred Pais

    Vinny, my concern here is if there is an issue due to the camera I use, this in itself is a problem to many ... if not now, then soon as the technology keeps improving. The recent Canon R series is a game changer in that area, but they certainly are not alone.

    I have gone into my NVIDIA card and made a minor adjustment which I don't believe will make a difference. I have to do some further testing here. I also manually went into the PC setting and made manual settings for the VRAM and Page Files so both will at least have a maximum of 8192. It could be my imagination, but it looked like the video performance had improved slightly. Again, I have to play with a few images to see if it has made any real difference, or if it causes some other issue.

    I have to go back and take a look at what the sizes are after shooting in RAW and output. The images in RAW out of the camera are in the 50-55Mb range for a recent shot. The output after editing one of those in Photo RAW was in the 5Mb range for a JPG at 8K.

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  • Fred Pais

    Vinny, I forgot to mention, that same image used here was also outputted in PNG at 195Mb!

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  • Fred Pais

    Hey Justin,

    Thanks for the long history you have gone through. For over 7 years it has been a constant venture to try every pro editing package I could get my hands on and afford, in expectation to better the result. So the learning curve comes into play and the purchase expense each time. I just refused to use Adobe, I think primarily with the payout platform. I also thought it was much more complicated and had the highest of learning curves.

    Now after all the great feedback I have received here, I have pondered on the fees for Ps and Lr as a package. When I now look back on what I have spent, especially since I upgrade when each new update comes out, I must have easily spent more than what it would cost for the subscription to Adobe. With the other packages like ON1, DxO, and Exposure 7 for example, at least I own them and have the then version forever to use when and how I want. So perhaps nothing was lost and a great education, that if migrating to Adobe should now have the experience to come up to speed fairly quickly and much more easily, and perhaps in the long run, less costly.

    Thanks again, All, for all your time and psotings!

     

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