Slow loading raw images in Edit mode
I have recently moved from LR, and have ON1 Raw on my M2 Mini, 16GB/1TB internal, on Ventura. Images are raw, from Nikon, 23MB. When in Edit mode, and I move with my cursor from image to image, a fuzzy one appears, but it takes 3 - 4 seconds to resolve each one. Images are unedited. If I backtrack, I can do 3 or 4 that are clear, but any more than that and they have to be resolved again. Same if I then go forward to what I have already viewed. I have a 5GB cache for ON1, and it says it is using half. My internal SSD is about 70% full. Is this delay normal?
Thanks
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3 or 4 seconds is normal. If you apply nonoise or tack sharp, that time may increase since those are applied during the load process.
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Thanks, but disappointing. As I mentioned, these are just the raw images with nothing applied. I was coming from a 2012 mini with LR, and, given all the changes in technology, expecting a significant improvement. Looks like the net gain over that time is zero. What the hardware gives over 11 years, ON1 takes away.
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Yea, but it's doing a lot WHILE the image is loading.
You're used to LR where you have to import the image before you can do anything with it, where ON1 uses the image direct from your drive without prior importing. Two different programs, two different methods.
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Something doesn't sound right, unless I misunderstand what you are doing. I'm on an M1 iMac with 40+ MB Canon raw files and in Edit mode I can flip through images using either the filmstrip or the arrow keys and not experience any "fuzzy" images, for both edited and unedited files. For previously edited images it does take 3-4 seconds before the edit panels on the right are loaded and usable, after I stop on an image, but the previews are instantaneously available and sharp as I flip through them.
Note however that the folders I am viewing are CATALOGED, and therefore have stored previews. If you haven't cataloged your photo folders that may be the difference.
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Thanks for the input David. All files are catalogued. In detail view I get the 3 – 4 second delay. Interestingly, when I use the cursor to go back, or ahead again, to photos I just just viewed, it will load 5 without having to wait for it to be re-rendered, or whatever the term is. Any more than that, and it has to reload and re-render, so clearly it isn't saving the "sharp" versions. In filmstrip mode, the delay is shorter, 1 – 2 seconds or so. So, I will likely use that more until I decide whether to stick with ON1 or try something else. Your observations are appreciated.
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Are you in Fast Preview or Accurate view mode? From page 20 in the User Guide:
FAST PREVIEW MODE
Sometimes, when you get back to your computer after a shoot, you want to be able to go through a large number of photos quickly, looking for your best shots. ON1 Photo RAW’s Fast Preview mode lets you do just that. Select Fast from the View menu’s Preview Quality option, and you can jump from photo to photo quickly with minimal lag between shots.
If you are more concerned about color accuracy than speedy previews, select Accurate from the Preview Quality option in the View menu. ON1 Photo RAW will generate a full-resolution preview of your photo, using the photo’s embedded color profile. This will take a few seconds, depending upon the size of the raw file you’re working with, but you will get a better sense of the actual color in the photo.
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Thanks Brian. At this stage, I'm in Accurate mode, as I have got rid of the poor quality ones and duplicates, and am either making decisions on, or confirming decisions on, photos of choice. I wasn't aware of the Fast option. I tried it, and it loads much more quickly, about half a second, although new photos still take about 3 seconds. It looks like the solution is to mostly use the Fast Option, then remember to switch to Accurate when needed. Probably coming up with a new workflow that involves more stages of categorisation, selection and review before getting to the Accurate mode. Although when doing a semi-final review of, say, 200 photos, that still means more than 10 minutes waiting for photos to resolve. I'll try to make that work.
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hmmm... I'm running in "Accurate" preview mode, on what should be a slower M1 machine and with all photos on an external SSD, and I'm sitting here in both Browse and Edit mode flipping through images as fast as I can tap the arrow key with no lag. Note the fast/accurate selection is not in the View menu when in Edit mode.
Seems like something else is going on, but I have no idea what it might be. Are your images on the internal SSD or external? I read the 256GB SSD in the M2 Mini was 50% slower than in the M1 Mini, but the 1TB should be fine.
Also, I chose "medium" size previews when I created the catalogs, though I wouldn't think that would be the difference. I can create a lag if I try to flip through photos while zoomed in rather than viewing the full photo.
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Thanks David. My SSD is internal, and yes, I had read about the 256GB being slower, but the 512 and above were fine. I went back and set up as you did, set accurate from the Browse mode, went to Edit, full photos not zoomed. Catalogued previews were Standard Size. Set them instead to Medium, didn't make any difference. Still the 3 - 4 second delay moving photo to photo with the cursor.
So, I have no idea either. I will work with this on the current projects, then decide what to do.
Everyone's suggestions have been appreciated.
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If you change the size of the rendered Preview files, all the photos in your Catalog(s) will have to be re-rendered at that new size and that is going to take some time depending upon the Catalog size. You may be trying to view images which haven't yet been rendered which would cause a slow down in their display.
Also, with everything on your internal SSD there is I/O contention that has to be taken into account. You're loading the file and reading the PBC at the same time while other background tasks, both from the OS and any programs which are running, may also be trying to access the drive as well.
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I checked the User Manual on Preview Files, and it said that for most purposes, one should use Standard (the default). Only if you have disk space issues, or using a networks connection, might you need something smaller. Neither of those apply to me, so I decided it wouldn't be worth trying to re-render.
I checked my CPU usage, and when moving ahead with the cursor to a new photo every 4 seconds in Edit mode, accurate, it rarely gets above 25%, very occasionally hitting 30% for a split second. When I am using ON1, the only other things open are Mail and Safari. Closing Safari makes no difference. So, I don't see any evidence of background tasks causing a slowdown.
I note that Rick earlier in the thread says that the delay I am experiencing is normal. But, you don't seem to have it. So, I don't know. Looks like I'm stuck for now, so will rework my process for the time being and then decide whether to stick with ON1 or try something else.
Again, I have appreciated all the help.
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I keep Mail and Safari open all the time as well unless I'm working on a HUGE file and need every bit of RAM. That rarely happens.
I have also tweaked my system to optimize Photo RAW's performance. I have a separate, dedicated SSD connected directly to a Thunderbolt 3 port on my M1 which is used only for the program's PerfectBrowseCache and its Scratch space. This is an optimization I started back in my Photoshop days even before Lightroom was released. I also have all my photos on an external SSD. This is mostly for convenience of migrating to new systems but it does spread out the I/O that much more further reducing I/O contention.
Just a minor point but in Edit mode you are always in Accurate view mode. The ability to choose Accurate or Faster applies only to the Browser. Also, because you are in the Editor, you have to take into account that the program is going to do all the AI mask creation and any NoNoiseAI and Sharpening AI before it displays the image on the screen. It does this each and every time for each and every photo you load. It takes ~4-5s for my system to load and make ready for editing my 52MB .cr3 files.
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I am struggling to get through editing batches of photos quickly so ran some tests to see if changing some variables makes a difference on my setup. The answer seems to be no, but I share what I tried incase it saves someone time later.
My setup: Mac Studio M1 Max 64GB RAM 2TB SSD. Running email, Safari and On1 Photo RAW. RAW files on external HD.
Folder of 20 Sony RAW files taken on A7RIV - c. 62 MB per file. Edits on files include Effects with masks, Local adjustments with masks and No Noise AI. System and VRAM usage set to max in Preferences.
I am in edit mode and make a small adjustment to base exposure, then right arrow to next photo and time how long till I can access the edit controls.
My usual configuration: 25 seconds.
I tried the following, and in each case the time till I could access the next photo was unchanged: closed all other programs, turned GPU Render off, emptied the Cache, moved Scratch and Cache onto external SSD, reduced System and VRAM percentages to 50%. I also ran the test with the files on my Mac SSD, and on an external Samsung T7 2TB SSD, with no change to the load time.
Finally I copied the RAW files to a fresh directory without the sidecars, so that had no edits. When I ran the test with the same minor exposure change load time is 8 seconds. I tried the same with a set of jpegs of the same photos and load time was also 8 seconds.
I conclude that the time to move to the next photo is all processing time. Presumably running though all of the edits/masks and No Noise AI and applying them to the base photo.
I will persevere with On1 as I love the software however it is borderline of getting too slow for me to get through moderate numbers of photos in a session and if it gets slower as more features are added then it could tip over the edge for me.
If any of you find a way to speed things up I really want to hear about it.
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Moving the Scratch file and the PerfectBrowseCache won't affect editing. The Scratch space is used by the Resize module and the PBC only hold rendered previews. It does not get accessed during editing unless you keep the Filmstrip open.
The same goes for emptying the Cache. All that does is get rid of the previews held for images which are not in a Catalog. Editing is not affected by it.
You are right that the time is all processing time but it is not all processing time for the 1st, edited image. The edits get written to the .on1 sidecar file, nothing is "applied to the base photo." That's what non-destructive means, the original source file whether it is in RAW format a some pixel format is left unchanged.
Do you leave the Presets and Filmstrip panels open? That will slow things down as all those previews have to be rendered as well.
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You should talk with tech support if the tips you've found here are not helping.
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Thanks Brian for those suggestions and insights.
Perhaps I phrased my second last arc badly - when I said applying the edits I meant that they would be applied to the next photo so that the edited version shows on screen, rather than meaning it is writing the edits to the drive. I presume there is little time taken to save the currently open photo as only the sidecar file would be written/updated.
I checked, I did not have the Presets Browser nor Filmstrip open BUT I was in dual screen mode with thumbnails displaying on the second screen. I ran the test with Dual off however the time did not seem to change.
However.... I have discovered one edit that makes a huge difference. My workflow is to make edits to a photo, then to copy/paste the settings to other photos that are similar, and then adjust those individually (hence I am mostly opening photos with edits already applied). I then inevitably go back through 1-2 more times to get the whole set to where I want so that it goes in to a Sideshow.
I have been making extensive use of lightly applied No Noise AI as I like the sharpening up It does to images. I tried reediting my test set of 20 images without using No Noise AI but using the copy settings as usual. Doing that, I can move to the next photo in 7-8 seconds, which is very acceptable (c. 4 seconds for an unedited photo). An 18 second improvement might not sound much but my last batch of photos to edit was 220, so the saving is 66 minutes of staring at the screen plus in 25 seconds my concentration wanders and so overall it slows me down a lot. So I'll reserve No Noise AI for any photos that will really benefit from it. It does not sound like a support issue, it is just the time a specific process takes to do its job.
I appreciate the work you do on this forum as I'm sure do many others.
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If I understand correctly, you are editing an image including the use of NoNoise AI then copy/pasting/syncing those edits to new photos which you then open to fine tune. That will definitely impact the time it takes to open the files and load the images. NoNoise AI is applied to the RAW data before it gets demosaiced into the image which is presented onscreen. That will increase the load times.
I also like the sharpening that can be done with it even if no noise reduction has been used.
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