Moving photos + sidecars using Windoes Explorer: does PhotoRaw recognize the edits?
Hi,
I ask this question because I loose all edits since PR2018.5.2...
Could moving files with Windows instead of On1 be the cause?
Also, I use GoodSync to synchronize/duplicate my files on backup HDDs. Never had problems, but could this be the cause?
I'm in contact with Support Team but no solution insofar. Maybe you have had similar experiences
Thanks,
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If you are moving the .on1 files along with the photo files you shouldn't lose your edits.
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Yvan, as long as you keep the related files together you shouldn't lose anything.If you have a good backup you should be able to restore the sidecar files. Your edits are also kept in a database on your PC. Even if you lose the sidecars, On1 will still remember your work as long as you don't use Explorer to move the photos. If you move the photo without the sidecars, On1 won't be able to match the photo with the edits in the database unless you're using On1 browser to do the moving.
Be careful how you do your backup. If you're trying to keep your backup in sync with your photos and a change you make to either copy is reflected in the other, then any deleted files on either drive will delete them on the other, also if you have a drive fail and those files can't be read during a backup they may also be deleted on the other drive unintentionally.
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Thanks Jim and Rick, PR should be working as you say, but it is not the case. Here is the test I did this morning:
CONTEXT: I synchronize my master HDDs with backup HDDs on a regular basis using GoodSync (nothing is automated because I want to keep control on what is going on). When I did it this morning, I found an edited file with a major difference in the size of the .on1 sidecar file (the newest one, opened with 2018.5.3 or .2 is very small).
REPEATING THE PROBLEM:
- I made a copy of the backed up file with its sidecar files xmp and on1 (this latter being 4522Kb).
- I opened it is BROWSE and the edits were there.
- I switched to DEVELOP and the edits were still there
- I clicked on the loupe to enlarge the photo and all the edits are gone !
- I looked at the size of the .on1 sidecar file and it has become very small (25Kb).
This is what happened with versions 2018.5.2 and 2018.5.3: as soon as I use one command in DEVELOP, all the edits disappear.
Rick: thanks for the info. I use GoodSync to do regular backups (I use "synchronize" rather than blind backup because I always want to see what changed before committing to the synchronization. In rare cases, this helps avoiding unintentional changes).
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Yvan,
I just tried repeating your test and I did not loose my edits with the loupe. I created a version and tested the version (just in case).
Here is a thought... if ON1 is trying to write to the .on1 sidecar and there is a problem encountered, it probably just creates a new sidecar.
Maybe a directory permission changed and you are dealing with something that is causing ON1 to not get the kind of access it wants when it switches to the loupe? And it just kicks into some auto mode where it recreates the sidecar or perhaps the .xml.
You might try your test again, but before you go into develop, change the star rating or the heart symbol in Browse. That will also touch the .on1 files and it might throw the edits away right then and there.0 -
Regarding file size, I notice a wide difference in the size of my on1 files. Some are ~2,500 MB, but most are in the 26-28KB range. I have no idea what accounts for the difference, as most of my photos are treated essentially the same.
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It makes no difference if my files are in cataloged folders or not.
Regarding .on1 file size, it becomes bigger if the file is edit (at least, it is my understanding).
Kevin, would you be interested into testing one on my backup files that lose its edits with 2018-5-2? I would then see if it is related to the file or to my installation of PR 2018.5.2 and .3 (both versions with same issue). I'm on Win10.
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Tech support has told me that if there is no edit there is no on1 file.
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Hi Jim,
This is true if we only BROWSE images. However, as soon as we open a photo in DEVELOP, even if we do not edit the image, an .on1 file is created.
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Yvan,
Sure. Put the file(s) in here...
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/g9ghzvv8bsagab9/AAAs3x0WeMhUGaeax0kJYjQYa?dl=0
Let me know if you cannot put the files there. I think I get a notification when the files arrive.
I am on Win10 also and am running the latest version/release of ON1 PR.
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Yvan, i tried your procedure as well. Sorry, but all works here just as I expected it too. here is what I tried...
- copy an edited photo and its On1 file to a new folder.
- Point On1 to the new location. The photo showed up properly with edits.
- Zoom in and out
- Switch to develop, still ok
- Go back to browse. Noticed that the timestamp of the On1 file updated when leaving develop
- Go into Effects and back to browse. All edits still intact
- Delete the On1 file with file explorer while still open in On1. Edits still show in browse
- Go to develop. Picture still ok without On1 file.
- Go to browse, on1 file is recreated on exiting develop edits still all ok.
What else can I try?
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Hi Rick,
What you describe is exactly how it should go, but it isn't the case with my installation of PR2018.5.2 and PR2018.5.3. This problem appeared with 18.5.2.
BTW, did you use a photo edited with versions prior to 2018.5.2?
Thanks,
Yvan
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Hi Kevin,
It didn't work. I also use Dropbox a lot but it didn't accept me copying files to the specified place.
I'll send you my Dropbox link in a private mail.
Thanks,
Yvan
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I don't know what photos were edited with prior versions, there is nothing marking them that I could search for. I'll keep looking.
If you have trouble sending files, WeTransfer(free) works well and is easy to use.
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Yvan,
I sent you a msg.. I was away for a day and a half and just got back to the computer. I tested your file using the Backup HDD with edits.zip file. Initially, even with Fast view in Browse, it took a few seconds to show me the thumbnail. First I saw an empty box in Browse. I double clicked on it and then I saw the msg box pop up and it then showed me the edited image... sort of. Then I went into Develop and it gave me the same msg box (you will see it below). I saw the vignette control for a few seconds and then it was gone.
I did not have to use the loupe to get it to erase the edits. All I had to do was wait for about 5 to 10 seconds and it erased the edits all by itself. I saw the vignette go away. Here is Browse and the progress message box.
Here is Develop, before it erased the edits. Note the weirdness in I am guessing is a mask. It also displayed the same progress box as Browse did, but I was not quick enough to capture it.
Here is Develop with the edits erased. I did nothing except move my mouse up to the navigation window. No tablet input, no clicks, nothing. On1 erased it on it's own.
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So, that sounds like the sidecars are either corrupt or incompatible. Was a file like this sent to On1 so they could try it?
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Hi Kevin and Rick,
What Kevin shows is exactly what I get (including the ghost mask, which is another problem I reported to the Support team several months ago with PR2018 ! but no solution).
What I think is that 2018.5.2 and .3 are erasing all edits because of installation problem. In both versions, I was asked to update from within PR (when I opened it) instead of going the traditional way of downloading from the web site and installing after downloading.
I have reported this problem to On! several days ago and am still waiting for a solution. The first replies didn't allow pinpointing the problem. I gave them access to the exact same files for testing. No answer insofar.
I also sent them a new bug report yesterday: The brush and the hand (image moving tool after crop) are sticking together, so I cannot brush because the hand moves the image simultaneously. Totally unusable ! Since version 2018.5.2, I have been unable to use PR because of major bugs !
I don't know about you, but I rarely obtain solutions from the Support Team !!!
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Yvan, it's dissapointing that you have this problem, but in fairness, you're the only one I've ever heard of that has it. It may not be something that support can fix by email. If they find the cause it may take the next update before you see an improvement.
Are you still able to use On1 with new unedited photos and just keep the other in backup till the solution arrives?
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Yvan,
I updated my versions of ON1 PR by downloading and then running the executable, so that rules that out as far as my computer erasing the edits.
I just tried all of this again, but not in my catalog. Just off the hard drive. I saw something that I also saw yesterday, but forgot about. I went into Develop and my version of ON1 put me into a subdirectory of a preset that I had created. When I tried to use the left button of the mouse over on the right side controls in Develop, I got a "ding" like the computer was waiting for me to close a dialog box and until I did, it was not going to allow me to do anything. But no dialog boxes were waiting for input. So I went over to the left side and went up one level in my preset menu and that is when ON1 became responsive and also when it erased all of the edits. This is probably just like you using your loupe and freeing up ON1 to get unstuck.
What I think is going on, and this is just my intuition, is that ON1 is reading the sidecar file and trying to re-execute the edits and running into a show stopper that is probably causing ON1 to get lost down. I am sure that if ON1 support debugged the actions as the sidecar was dictating them, they would figure it out. It could be something as simple as they used to allow 30,000 points in the mask, and they decided to shrink that to 25,000 points. Assuming no one ever went to 30,000.
One thing I have discovered from ON1 support is this: If the problem is not reported by enough users, then it just a lower priority for fixing. And even though that is harsh, I can understand it. You have to put out the biggest fires first and those are the ones that have the most users.For instance, I use the histogram in levels a whole lot in my infrared B&W editing. But there is a window resizing bug in that and it has been there for several iterations. I sent it in, it is repeatable by anyone with any photo, and they acknowledged that they could repeat it. But until more people complain about it, I am suffering.
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Thank you Kevin and Rick, I may try to uninstal PR and reinstall it from scratch. This is the only avenue I see for now.
I also checked and the edits I did with the latest version are not erased when I open again the edited photo. So, the problem is only with photos edited with the previous versions.
Nevertheless, PR remains unusable in its present version on my PC because of too many bugs on fundamental elements such as loosing some metadata when exporting, brushes which are not fluid, and others I have listed in the previous general forums.
I'll keep you informed if I find a solution. Insofar, no reply from Support Team to my email sent 2 days ago and some emails sent since January.
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Is there a chance that On1 is trying to open a preset that was applied to your old photos that isn't there any more?
Do the photos themselves open properly without the old edits?
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Rick, I opened the edited file you tested using my older version 2018.5.1 on my portable PC and it didn't destroy the edits. When I opened the file edited with 2018.5.2, the edits were not there. So, it really is the newest version that erased my edits.
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Well, I uninstalled completely RP 2018.5.3 and reinstalled it. All edits from versions prior to 2018.5.2 still disappear. No ghost masks though !
Strangely, the size of the .on1 sidecar file didn't change after I closed PR ! It used to shrink a lot ! Nevertheless, when I reopen PR the edits don't appear !!! Very bizarre !
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Can you go back to 2018.5.1 for now? If so, you should keep 2018.5.1 and install any new versions beside it, rather than replace it.
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Rick, I keep 2018.5.1 on my portable to be able to see which edits were made to a series of photographs (in case I need to expand such a series).
However, I have to give a 6hr class "intro to post-processing" in one month and will likely not be able to recommend PR2018 amongst the software packages I'll list (and I will certainly not use it for demos if bugs are not fixed).
BTW, I tested with a Milky Way photograph that didn't use the same presets (if I used any...this is another weakness of PR: no log of used presets, filters, crops, fixes, etc.) and I also lost my edits. So the hypothesis of using a preset that isn't there anymore is not valid. Thanks for the suggestion though ;-)
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As I understand it, you have a backup with the original sidecars. If you simply went back to 2018.5.1 and restored those files, you shouldn't have lost anything.
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Yes I have backups except for the few files I opened with 2018.5.2 and .3
I have been trying to work with PR for 2 years now, since 2017 came out, but was never able to do professional work with reliability. So, I know this software doesn't work well on my 1-year old powerful computer (and powerful laptop) and I have to say thee truth to my students.
I know other pieces of software also have been reported to have problems in Windows (Ex. Luminar) and Macs. On the other hand, others seem more reliable because they have been there for longer time.
I would love to recommend PR because I love its interface and its capabilities. Also, On1Plus is fantastic.
It is the most complete alternative to LR and there is no need to catalog files (which is a key factor for me). It has fantastic functions and this is why I still hope it will work one day. I'll say all that to my students, but they must know that I have problems with:
- loosing past edits
- loosing metadata
- crop function that doesn't allow precise cropping
- no log of crop into crop, fixes, perfect eraser, etc.
- technical support that is not to the level of other software I use
- brushes that regularly don't work well, sometimes not at all
- ghost masks
- camera profiles and On1 profiles that erase all nice colors of the preview and are very far from original camera preview (as shown in the software provided by Nikon)
- Faulty "fit" once in a while in Browse
- etc.
There are plenty of bugs I've been reporting to Support Team. I have a folder full of screen copies.
I still hope PR will work one day on my machine, but I also feel I have been very patient and that I have very limited support from On1.
I'm a professional photographer and cannot afford too much problems like these. I also have a strong background in computer science (I'm an engineer) and I have never seen a commercial product being this buggy on my Windows, Mac and Unix systems...
You certainly feel how frustrated I am because I want PR to succeed and I want to use it reliably. But so far, I cannot recommend it without warnings.
On1 Support Team should be more responsive to my several bug reports.
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OK, got some feedback from Support Team. This is known issue to be resolved in future updates...
It is not the first time I receive such an answer, but let's hope !
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Excellent!
I have been told the same at least once. The kicker on this is "How many other's have this problem?" because even thought it is a known issue, they have to put the fires out in the order from biggest to smallest. Which seems to be tied to the number or support tickets they get for an issue (I am guessing based on what ON1 support has told me). I am sure ON1 has a core of seasoned programmers, just not as many as some of these other companies. I have a known issue with them that has seen at least two updates come out and not address the issue.
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Not sure if this is the same issue, but will add my experience. When I copy an edited photo and paste it into another folder, the edits do not go with the pasted copy. I have Save sidecar files checked so even if I don't see the sidecar files, I would expect them to be attached to the copied and pasted file. Not the case. I have to go in and copy the settings from the one file and paste them into the copy.
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David, can't comment untill we know HOW you're copying and pasting. It's different weather you're inside or outside of On1.
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