Strange behavior when masking in layers.
I have an issue that the ON1 staff seems to be unable to help with and I am putting this here as maybe you had the issue and found a resolution.
When I mask a layer in Layers the mask is showing the brush lines when I invert the image. Lets say you have a grey sky and want to replace it with a blue sky with clouds, so you select a luminosity mask, adjust it for the best you can get. Next there are things popping up in areas that require brushing so you use the brush to paint out or paint in the areas that are affected - looks nice black and white, invert and the brush marks are there and the mask is screwed up.
Staff has requested a couple of videos and have not been able to duplicate it at ON1. They sent me a new release and instructed me to get rid of anything RAW 2019 including any downloads and the problem is still there.
This is happening on a Windows 10 64 bit machine with 16 Gb ram and a 2 Gb Nvidia GT-730 video card BUT the computer is 8 YO and has an I5-760 processor. The only thing I would suspect is slowness due to age not functionality.
Any thoughts?
Thanks for looking!
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I tried to re-create this problem and it's not happening for me. Can you post a screen shot of those brush strokes?
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I am on a Mac but I guess that the same applies.
I thought that it was a known limitation of inverting luminosity masks that if they had been changed using Levels and Windows then these settings are not inverted when the mask is inverted, so you get the basic luminosity mask, plus any brush/gradient additions, inverted but then the same level and window settings are reapplied to this inverted mask. End result is not an inversion of the adjusted mask.
Same thing goes for copy and paste, only the basic mask is copied and pasted, level and window settings remain at their default values.
This is the behaviour that I am seeing in a quick test, and I am sure that there was an earlier post on on of the support forums pointing this out and asking for a way in which the adjusted mask could be properly inverted and/or copied.
In a recent On1 video on masking the tutor tried to invert a mask and hit the same problem, so it is possible that even within On1 the fact that adjusted luminosity masks do not behave as one would expect them to is not fully understood.
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David, what you're describing was true in 2018, but I'm not seeing that in 2019. When I create a luminosity mask and then brush something out, inverting the mask works as you'd expect it should. I just tried it to make sure i had that right.
I also copied the mask from a layer and pasted it into a local adjustment where I can see both masks at the same time and it pasted correctly with all of the sliders just as they were as the photo shows below. Also, both the luminosity and the brush masks were copied over together.
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Running on 2019 and using a jpg that I had done a reset all on, so hopefully no links to 2018 remain. This is what I get if I adjust a luminosity mask to select the rocks and then invert it. I would have expected the inverted image to be black rocks against white sky but instead whole of bottom of image is blacked out. Note that the Levels and Window sliders have not moved so it appears that the same adjustments are being applied against the inverted image.
No brush strokes were applied to the mask before inverting it.
However, once I applied a brush stroke to the mask inverting then worked as I would have expected. Levels and Windows sliders do not change positions when inversion takes place but do impact the mask if they are then adjusted further.
Even without the brush stroke I confirm that copying and pasting is now working as expected, with Levels and Window slider settings being copied across, mask created in Effects successfully copied to another Effects filter, local adjustment and another layer.
So we are both right - it does work as expected if a luminosity mask is tweaked with brush strokes but not if left as generated with just Level and Window adjustments.
The only problem with this is, if I read Vinny's original post correctly, he did adjust and brush in changes to his luminosity mask before inverting it so on the basis of what we have observed it should have worked.
I will try and do a screen recording that I can submit as bug report.
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I believe that is to do with the Levels and Windows sliders as you can use multiple masking tools to create and modify masks but a luminosity mask always overrides the current mask.
So, in effect, if you start with a Luminosity Mask and modify it using the Brush, and don't adjust the Levels or Window sliders, it will invert properly.
But if you adjust the Levels or Window sliders it won't invert exactly because the Luminosity mask overrides the Levels/Window settings. So, in effect, the Levels/Window settings are applied to the inverted mask and you can see that reflected in the Levels/Window sliders as they aren't inverted.
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But if you adjust Levels/Windows and then add a brush stroke then it does invert properly, even though the sliders don’t change position.
I have submitted a bug report since it should be possible to get true inversion of an adjusted luminosity mask to allow different adjustments to be applied to each part of a masked image. At least there seems to be a work round in adding a brush stroke after tweaking Levels/Windows sliders.
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Thanks for the replies. When I get home later I'll see if I can post a link to the video I made for the ON1 staff.
I am unaware of any issues with inverting in 2018. In Dave Tillet's example what should have happened is anywhere black turn white and anywhere white turn black when you invert. That's exactly what it means. If you have 20% grey then it should turn 80% grey when inverting. So Dave is showing an issue with it as well.
As far as using the luminosity, color or any mask - you are supposed to select the mask type (in this case luminosity) first and then use the brushes to fix areas. If you use the brush first and then select luminosity then the luminosity mask over writes the brushing. The same holds true with any type of mask you select (gradient, vignette, ...).
I haven't had a chance to do much these days as I still want to get it onto my son's new gaming machine to see what differences in performance if any there is. At this point, this seems to be my only issue other than slow exporting but I take that as it is what it is. I did send an email to support to see if they have come up with any clue and am waiting for their answer.
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I had the same issue in 2019 while in Effects. Applied a Luminosity mask, adjusted with levels & window sliders, then cleaned it up with brush strokes. Copied to a new effect which pasted OK. Inverted the mask and only the brush strokes showed up. Monitoring this thread for a solution.
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Here's the link to one of the videos I sent to ON1. I truly believe I didn't have this issue with 2018.5. I have had a lot going on lately so I haven't been able to play with the program.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1P3awd-K1H3jE9MCEwa_Fcr1EKChaawWC
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Ok, so looking at this video I tried it again following your procedure (I did it differently before). The first problem I see is that invert isn't isn't working properly with luminosity masks. This screenshot is just an adjusted luminosity mask with no brushing. The inverted side (Right) shows much more detail along the bottom than the normal side.And the center area is almost black on both of them.
Then, when brushing and inverting i get the same problem as Vinny. I notice though that if you brush out the entire area and then try to brush something in again, the brush strokes aren't there any more. It's as if whatever was causing the problem was overwritten and doesn't exist any more. Strange. And On1 can't recreate this? They should be able to.
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On1 have responded to my reporting of the behaviour I observed yesterday. They are aware of issues and there is already an open bug report and they are working on a fix to be made available in some future release.
No details of what they consider to be issues to be fixed against expected behaviour, nor timescale for the release of the fix.
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Rick,
I sent them the files, log reports and they requested the video and they said they can't replicate the problem. They have been extremely silent lately even though I asked if they have come up with a solution. Maybe their overwhelmed but this is NOT a minor issue if you use masks - and most of us do. I have not tried to see if this problem is also on any localized adjustments which it may or not be there. Unfortunately 2019 came out and my life kicked into overdrive in the personal area. I'm glad but sorry to see that others are having the issue. I will have to try what you did (brushing in) and see if the problem goes away. It could be a temporary fix until a patch comes out.
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So after a few emails to ON1 support that go unanswered and my attempt to bring it to the masses on the ON1 FB page I guess this is an unsolved mystery. I went into 2018.5 and it is doing the same thing and I would say that it wasn't doing that before 2019 was installed. I guess they share files when on the same computer. I don't ever remember having this issue before in 2018.
I did uninstall everything - 2018 & 2019, reinstalled but the problem is still there. It even shows up in local masks when using luminosity masking. I'll see where this goes and hopefully they will find a solution although I am a little disheartened that they are ignoring my emails even though it was part of the support chain and they were requesting videos from me at one point.
If I hear anything I'll keep this thread updated.
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I have experienced the same problem in Photo Raw 2020.5 to day, the 27th of August 2020, on my Win 10 system.
I created a mask with the levels sliders and then refined it with the B-brush, brushed in and -out. The mask was predominantly white and black.
Then I copied the mask and pasted it into another adjustment layer and reversed it - still looked good- still black and white.
Then I lowered the opacity to 50%, and all the brush strokes jumped out at 100 percent, i.e. black on the 50% grey.
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I would wait until you've added the SSD for the program's Scratch space. If the problem still exists then it needs to be reported to technical support with the Submit a request link below. Also be sure to include the information requested in this link https://on1help.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360018405111-How-to-submit-a-problem-to-ON1-Tech-Support-A-Step-by-step-Guide.
You should also include screen shots showing the problem along with the RAW file you are working with and its .on1 & .xmp sidecar flies. Those will need to be zipped together then posted to a sharing site like Dropbox or WeTransfer and the download link pasted into the support request.
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I will wait, Brian. I hope the SSD will change the general picture. Either way I will report my findings.
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A SSD drive should help but what I've found sometimes it is best to uminstall On1 using their removal tool, run CCleaner a few times to get rid of anything ON1 and then reinstall. I have found a fresh install usually gets rid of problems.
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Vinny,
I manually executed the following prescription (from elsewhere on this site) a few days ago, reinstalled from "newest version" link and held down Shift while Photo Raw 2020.5 booted. The operation had no significant effect on the speed of navigation:
1. Uninstall via the Add/Remove Programs
2. Remove the C:\Program Files\ON1\ON1 Photo RAW 2020 directory
3. Remove the directories with "2020" in their names located in C:\ProgramData\ON1
4. Remove the directories with "2020" in their names located in C:\Users\<user>\AppData\Roaming\ON1
5. Remove this directory C:\Users\<user>\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\Lightroom\Modules\ON1 Photo RAW 2020.lrplugin
6. Remove this directory C:\Users\<user>\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\Lightroom\Modules\ON1 Resize 2020-suite.lrplugin
7. Remove the 2020 files in this directory C:\Users\<user>\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\Lightroom\External Editor Presets
8. Remove the 2020 files in this directory C:\Program Files\Common Files\Adobe\Plug-Ins\CC0 -
I installed a flash drive and guided the caches that way. It has not solved this problem.
I can reproduce it on demand. But is ON1 interested? Seems to me that Vinny has tried to get ON1's attention without much luck.
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Since you are reporting your current problems on a thread that is 2 years old let's be sure we are talking about the same problem. Give me a step-by-step procedure describing what you are doing. Screenshots at different steps will be helpful. Let me see if I can reproduce it on my system. You might even want to zip together your image file and its sidecars to be uploaded to a web sharing site like Dropbox or WeTransfer for me to look at. Post the download link along with the step-by-step.
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Has now installed a true SSD drive, 240 GB. I'll be back with the "proof" if he SSD hasn't made it impossible.
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Brian (and other),
My masking problem described:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1st2ystl99rb21t/AAB46J3swrBL0TG17N-JzN4Na?dl=0
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Looking through your PDF description I do not see the program misbehaving in any way. When you start with a luminosity mask, yes, it's properties get copied & pasted as is to be expected.
I do see what you are asking for and there is a way to do it. Hudson Henry described it in one of his Plus training videos.
Duplicate the base Layer after you've got your masking the way you want it. In the duplicate layer make adjustments to the image so it looks just like the mask you want to create. Now you can create a Layer Mask using the Color Range tool or a Perfect Brush to get the silhouette you want. Copy it from the Layer Mask and paste it in the other Layer's filters as needed.
You can then delete the Layer you added so the edits all remain with the original RAW file.
I do a lot of masking like this and here is how I do it. I find it easier for the work I do.
Here is what I did. I started with a Luminosity Mask in a Local Adjustment. Note that I'm not working with any editing sliders, only the mask control sliders; this is just about the masking. I added a Masking Bug set to Edges then adjusted the radius to isolate the rock as much as possible.
Next, I use a Brush to mask out close to the edge of the rock followed by a Perfect Brush for cleaning up the edges, inside and out. Inverted that mask now looks like this:
Copied and pasted into a Tone Enhancer Effect it looks nearly identical even after resetting the luminosity masks Range and Window sliders. It would be an easy matter to adjust the interior of the rock at this point if needed.
This took me about 10 minutes and I did a sloppy job. Take the time to learn the Perfect Brush and get a good feel for how it works and when to adjust its sliders. For me it gives much better results when cleaning up the edges of my masks no matter how the mask was originally created.
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Here's that video from Hudson Henry. You have to be a Plus Member to view it though.
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The problem that I see is that with the density slider at 84, the density of the brush strokes should be reduced along with the luminosity. I tried this here and it does work for me. My brush strokes and luminosity reduce evenly together when adjusting density.
I have seen this problem with masking before though. It happens from time to time. For me, it's usually when merging and I'm not sure if it's high memory load causing it or some GPU bug.
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Brian,
I do not se the program misbehaving in any way.
No, this is the way luminosity mask behaves. The idea of rasterizing is Capture One's: As soon as the user attempts to edit a luminosity mask with a brush, he is warned that he will loose the flexibility of the luminosity mask as it will be rasterized if he proceeds. No way around. I like that. In most cases the luminosity mask has reached the point, where the flexibility is no longer needed, and the rasterizing will saves us from the work around you describe with copying to another layer, new editing, and pasting back.
I will check your second method out. Thank you.
The last image should have been a demonstration of an even density reduction with your mask reduced to 50% f.ex. But I guess that's an implicit property with your method.
It was in that phase - when I wanted to copy a mask, invert it and reduce it to 50% - I fell over the uneven density reduction with a brushed luminosity mask. For a while I had hoped it was possible in PR.Rick,
Exactly, the luminosity mask is reduced first and almost gone before the brush strokes even begin to loose density. If the two had been "baked" together through a rasterizing - at the point when they looked evenly black - the former divisions would now be a unity and loose density at the same rate, which is the preferable behavior.
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I was just starting to write this when I got the email about your post. :)
Yeah, that's a bug. The density & opacity sliders should affect the brushed portions as well as the luminosity. I can see why the Level slider would not affect the brushed portions unless they were at something like 50% opacity.
Have either of you reported this yet?
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Not me, I never use density. Go for it.
... and to be clear, it's the Density slider that's not working. When i try it, it works fine with luminosity and brushed areas being adjusted equally.
Eigil's Density slider isn't working properly.
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Brian,
I have not reported this yet, but will, unless it will serve the case better, if you do it?
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By the way, Eigil
I don't know what the rasterizing is all about, but that's not how On1 works.
You can think of the luminosity mask and the brush mask as two separate layers. They appear to be added together internally, but they don't affect each other. Under some conditions, you can even alter each mask individually without affecting the other.
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