Skip to main content

Color management

Answered

Comments

18 comments

  • Mark Osman

    Good question.

    I can calibrate a monitor with XRite i1 Display but I want to import color profiles generated by say XRite Color Passport into ON1 Photo Raw. In practice using ColorChecker Passport  I can take a shot of the color swatches under right lighting conditions and generate a profile in XRite Color Checker s/w which will then guarantee that colors are reproduced accurately for all shots taken in those same lighting conditions.

    Lightroom allows this but when will ON1 please?

    0
  • Rick Sammartino Community moderator

    Don't know if this applies or not, but when you're in Edit, Click View and Profiles to see a list of all that are available. According to the user Guide (Page 73), those are Printer profiles although page 160 says they are Printer and Display profiles.

    0
  • andrea pedrazzini

    it is not clear if it is possible to import a proper ICC profile. If not, I believe it would be useful to ask for it in a future release. 

    Unfortunately it seems they are not more collecting ideas in the Photo Raw Project session (the latest requests presented in the website are dated November 2018...) 

    0
  • Rick Sammartino Community moderator

    Andrea, they are still collecting ideas, but they need to be approved before they show up on the list and On1 only does them in groups every once in a while. With the holidays, I expect the delay is longer than usual, but they'll get around to it eventually. So, if you want to add an idea, do it now so that you're included in the next group.

     

    By the way, I poked ICC into the search box above and found this interesting FAQ even though I can't find ICC anywhere in the document. I suspect you know most of this already, but thought I'd post it anyway.

    https://on1help.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115006118547-Color-Management-and-ON1-Photo-RAW-

    0
  • William Laven

    See this video: https://www.scottdavenportphoto.com/blog/icc-profiles-printer-settings-in-on1-photo-raw

    I loaded my Hahnemühle paper profile following Scott's directions and it works great. And the link Rick provided above is a nice explanation of working with the Print dialog boxes. Note that sometimes you can't click No Color Management in the Print Setup box - it'll be greyed out. Don't panic because once you go back to the Print Settings dialog and choose a printer profile, it will automatically turn on the No Color Management in the Print Setup box. If you're worried it didn't, just choose your profile in the large Print Settings box and then go back to the Print Setup box and you'll see that No Color Management has been checked automatically.

    BTW, Scott Davenport has some great vids on ON1.

    0
  • William Laven

    As a p.s., Scott uses a slightly different technique than explained in the link Rick shared which he explains in the video. Specifically, he chooses his profile in the Print Setup rather than the Print Settings. This might be a little unclear from my descriptions or if you've not printed with profiles before, but once you've watched his videos and loaded some profiles and printed some, it'll start to come naturally. BTW, ICC profiles are a must to maximize print quality. Many of the canned profiles you can download are great, but you can take it a step further by finding a company to whom you can send test prints from your printer and they'll make a profile for you. That way the profile isn't canned, but specific to your individual printer. I used to use Cathy's Profiles, but they're out of business now. There are probably others, but if you don't want to go that step, download a profile specific to your printer and you'll be happy.

    0
  • William Laven

    p.p.s When in Edit>View>Profiles you also have the option there to Import Color Profile - very simple.

    0
  • andrea pedrazzini

    Rick, William,

    thank you very much for the support and the great explanations. Now the printing process is much more clear, I still have a  doubt: once I have calibrated my monitor and Loaded the new ICC profile through the command Edit > View> profile, how I can "tell" to the editor to use this profile during the editing and when it export the image in Jpg or Tiff?

    At this stage I'm not going to print but I would like to export a jpg / tiff file that shall have the same color of those showed on my monitor during the editing.

    thanks again for the patience....;-))

     

    0
  • Peter Hanmore

    A bit off the original topic but I watched the Scott Davenport video mentioned above and found it interesting that he sets the colour management to 'printer controlled' and uses the printer driver to set the icc profile.  Admittedly, I'm new to printing as I just bought a PRO-100 on boxing day, but this seems to go against the recommendations of Jose Rodriguez who seems to have a very good reputation for explaining how to set up and use various printers/papers/inks for best colour matching.

    I'll have to try Scott's way and compare the results.  It's taken a bit of tweaking but so far I'm quite happy with the results.  I'm not sure that soft proofing in ON1 is helping too much - maybe a slightly better representation of the printed product.

    0
  • William Laven

    Andrea,

    It seems as if you misunderstand the use and purpose of profiles. And are confusing monitor and printer profiles. When you use a software like X-Rite to calibrate your monitor it comes with a probe that reads the color on the monitorYou go through a process of adjusting brightness and contrast first and then it generates know colors of different hues and values and reads them with the supplied probe. The software then creates a profile of your monitor and know, depending on your OS, where to store that profile so it is always turned on so your monitor is displaying colors as it should be. The software puts that profile in the right place - you don't use On1 to do that because it puts ICC profiles for papers and printing somewhere else. If you send me an image it won't look like it does on your monitor unless my monitor has also been calibrated according to known & fixed values via a calibration software. On any other monitor it will look different and there's no way you can control that. You can't send someone your monitor profile, because it is monitor specific. You just live with the fact that most of the known universe has uncalibrated monitors and they are not seeing what you are seeing. That's life digitally!!

    When you import a paper profile into your computer it goes to a specific folder and ON1 knows where that folder is and can import it and put it there. Then you use that profile whenever you are printing and only when you are printing. The ICC printer profile is designed to get your printer to faithfully reproduce the colors on that particular printer for that particular paper. Some people go so far as to redo a profile whenever they put in a new ink cartridge since it's hue might be slightly different. (I personally trust the manufacturer to have good quality control. That said, I don't but third-party inks for my photo printer).The assumption is that your monitor has been calibrated so what you are looking at on the screen will very closely match what comes out of the printer.

    All said, even with a calibrated monitoring and using a properly made and used paper ICC profile, the light shining from a monitor can never exactly match the light being reflected off of ink. Once one calibrates their monitor and uses ICC printing profiles, they know little tweaks to make it all work.

    To Peter, I'm unfamiliar with Jose's methods. Everyone works slightly different - the Page Setup and Printer dialog boxes give people lots of control over how they want printing done. Some rely on theICC profiles lodged on the computer to manage the printer, others let the profiles lodged in the printer driver to do it. Each method has its own process and effects. What is important, I think, ultimately, is that a person calibrates their monitor, uses the correct ICC profiles and develops a workflow that they are happy with and that works for them and produces prints that faithfully represent their vision.

     

     

    0
  • David Kick

    When I read Andrea's post I think of one thing that On1 does not have that Lightroom does and that is the ability to import a camera profile for display which is what she mentions. If you use an X-RIte Passport color checker and x-rite software you can take a photo of the color checker under a given lighting condition then the x-rite software builds a camera profile which you can name and is then visible in Lightroom under "Camera Calibration" - "Camera Profile".  The analog to this in On1 is "Tone & Color" - "Camera Profile" in develop. Unless I am mistaken On1 does not recognize the profiles generated by the X-rite software which is unfortunate as the Passport colorchecker is something I really liked to use. So in my mind you cannot import a Camera Profile to correct colors for display. You are stuck with the options in the On1 "Camera Profile" selection.

     

    Edited to add:

    Looks like On1 has started working on giving us the ability to import a camera profile 

    https://www.on1.com/products/photo-raw/ideas/idea/camera-color-profiles/

    1
  • Jeff Lambert

    I think the OP should read a bit on color management to get a grasp of what is involved. Everybody has to start somewhere and when you're just starting, having no idea what is what, it can be a lot confusing.

    Here's a VERY rudimental way of describing what is what in Color management in general.

    You have a monitor profile (even if you think you don't you generally have one loaded up from factory, even if it's a bad one). So, you need to make a good one with a tool like X-rites iDisplay pro or DataColor Spider5. 

    You have the WORKING color profile (here I'm thinking in Photoshop terms, not in ON1 photo raw). If you open a file in Photoshop, by default, you'll be in sRGB, which is a small gamut to modify your images. So you'll probably need to change this but it depends on what you do on your images. If you are working with RAW images, the ICC profiles doesn't matter at this stage since it is handled by Photo Raw and Lightroom as ProPhoto profile which is the biggest of the gamut available and will accomodate ALL possible color you can throw at it.

    Then you have the OUTPUT profile, which is how you're going to view your images. If you need to display them on a web page, you need sRGB for exemple. If you need to print it, that's where Rick and William's post come in, where you need to choose the wright profile for the specific printer etc,... If you print directly from ON1 Photo raw, than On1 will convert from it's internal profile (ProPhoto if it's a RAW file) using it's Color Management System (CMS) to the printer profile for your printer. Or depending how you choose to do your printing, see previous post from Rick and William.

    Now when you just look at your image what happens is that your computer tells your monitor to display the colors for it's profile (the Monitor profile, which is specific to your monitor, remember you made a good one?) When using On1, you are using Adobe's software, you are using their CMS (ACE for Adobe Color Engine), when using Preview on mac OS, you're using Apple CMS. I'm not a PC guy but I think windows does the same thing internally. I'm not sure if On1 uses Apple CMS or their own secret sauce.

    Now for the geeky part (as if the other part wasn't geeky enough;-)), if you are going from one profile to another, you have to make some decisions on how you go about it.

    If you go from ProPhoto, remember this is a huge gamut, and you want to go to sRGB, which is the smallest of the working RGB gamut, you can do it 4 ways (For those more advanced I'm using Adobe's terminology, not sure if the others uses the same methods). Here are the 4 in Adobe CMS, Perceptual, Saturation, Relative Colorimetric, Absolute Colorimetric. I won't go into detail as there are a lot of info here but suffice it to say that depending on the method you are using, you'll get different results from your conversion be it for screen or for print.

    They are literally entire books just on Color management, so you can go pretty deep in the subject if you choose to. 

    Short answer, in ON1, pick sRGB when you export if you intend it to be the final step before displaying on a web page or for general monitors. If you want to get to another software and make a lot of color adjustement and toning, use a wider gamut like AdobeRGB or ProPhoto (I prefer AdobeRGB which is closer to what is printable than ProPhoto, but to each is own). If you need to print directly from On1, pick the correct printer profile for your printer and paper. If you are just viewing your image in On1, don't look at them elsewhere, don't worry about it.

    PS, for those who know more about the subject, please forgive my over simplification:-)

     

    0
  • David Kick

    Jeff -- I have to beg to differ a bit regarding the profile generated by X-rite when used in Lightroom it is more akin to picking a camera profile "Camera Faithful" "Camera Landscape" etc.  again the function in On1 is in "Tone and Color" - "Camera Profile" - "On1 Lanscape" "On1 Portrait" etc.   The x-rite is just a way to get closer colors based on lighting conditions and all these work basically the same and will change the appearance of the image on your display regardless of color space selected sRGB AdobeRGB etc  . That said I do agree you have to be aware of how your image will be used and choose the correct color space when you export the image.

    1
  • Jeff Lambert

    Hey David,

    Notice that I didn't say Camera profile, but ICC profile, which are two different things;-) A Camera profile is a bit like a LUT, but can contain other info depending on the software. On1 has it's own version, Adobe as it's own. Other software can use Adobe's format. Adobe has made a real mess by interchanging the meaning of Camera profile within it's software and has meany user trying to figure out what is what.

    Here's Adobe SDK on how to create Profiles and what they actually contain. 

    back to On1, you could "probably" fake it with a LUT that you can create with 3DLut Creator Pro but I haven't checked that personally although I LOVE 3DLut Creator.

    0
  • andrea pedrazzini

    I think it is clear the difference between Working color space and Output color profile.

    The original question was :

    "Is there any peculiar windows within Photo Raw 2019 where I can verify that the ICC profile generated by the monitor calibration/profiling tool is actually used by Photo Raw to correctly display the images ?"

    Thanks to the various comments I have understood that ICC profiles generated after the monitor calibration/profiling are put somewhere and managed by the OS color management system. I have understood that Photo Raw can properly manage Output color profile for both printing and export file, but the issue was: using Photo Raw, how can I be sure that images displayed in the preview during editing are images displayed with the proper "color correction" (i.e the ones that make reference to the color profile generated by the calibration/profiling tool)?. Can I select a different color profile as reference during editing?

    Please note that several software (for example windows and explore image visualisator tools) do not have the capability to properly manage ICC profile even if the OS do.

    0
  • William Laven

    The monitor calibration file is not being used by PW2019, it's being used by the computer's OS to display a calibrated monitor. I don't know how this works on a PC, but on a Mac you go to System Preferences>Displays and then have 4 tabs to choose from - choose Color and there will be a list of monitor profiles. Once you've calibrated the monitor you just confirm that that's the chosen profile on that list.

    You can choose a different monitor/display color profile during editing, but I don't know why you would want to. If you're concerned that the monitor is displaying colors the way the print should look, that's what you discover after printing with the correct ICC profile that tells the printer how to manage color to match what you saw on the monitor. 

    The other "fly in the ointment" is that all this depends on the lighting in your workspace where you work at your computer and the lighting you use to view your print. If you're working on your computer in a room with incandescent lights and then view the prints in daylight, they won't match unless you've made adjustments to compensate for that. But also remember, an image on a screen will never look exactly like a printed image. Transmitted light from a monitor can NEVER look identical to reflected light off ink on a print. Once you get an idea through experience what those differences are, you'll know what to expect when you look at the monitor and then print and can adjust as necessary.

    Stephen Johnson in Pacifica, CA teaches digital printing and starts with a very comprehensive explanation and exercises that have to do with monitor calibration and profiling printers. See http://www.sjphoto.com/print_wkspHO_frameset.html and http://www.sjphoto.com/raw-to-print-workshop.html I know Stephen, but am in no way associated with his business so this recommendation brings me no monetary value. It's for your benefit, not mine. Good luck.

     

     

    0
  • andrea pedrazzini

    Thank you William. I got it !

    I thank everyone for the comments and the interventions made on color management, a quite difficult topic but always very interesting

    0
  • William Laven

    Best of luck, Andrea. I think everyone shudders a bit when first on the steep learning curve re: color management and then the lightbulb goes on and they go, "Oh, ok, I get it!!" 

    0

Please sign in to leave a comment.