Build a PC for On1
Am building a new PC for On1. Please help.
I use On1 as a stand-alone only. Since On1 doesn't provide guidance on the ideal system (They only recommend a gaming system), I'd like to put together a system, without too much overkill, that will handle anything I might do in On1 with maximum efficiency.
Am building from scratch and not too worried about the budget.
I'm not a gamer. It's just for On1.
I posted this before I saw the new post in the General Discussion, which has a lot of helpful info. Now, I'm wondering if there is such a thing as an ideal system for On1.0
A gaming type system was recommded by ON1 staff.0
A nice GPU with onboard memory, SSD or eVME drives, and lots of system memory. But don't forget about the monitor. Don't cheap out on the monitor. Consider a medium size Wacom Intuos Pro tablet. I think that the previous model, PTH-651,(not the current model) is good enough, at least I have no issues with it. The Wacom tablets, especially the previous model, are all over ebay for reasonable money.0
I recently designed a system specifically with On1 in mind,and had a local company assemble for $1500.
- MB - Asus Prime b360m-a
- PS- Thermaltake 700w ps
- CPU- Intel i5-8500 cpu
- Mem- 16 Gb ddr4 mmemory
- GPU - GTX 1050Ti
- HD - 1TB Samsung SSD, 250 GB NVME SSD
- Win 10 pro
If you're comfortable in building your own PC may I suggest looking at the new AMD Ryzen CPUs. They are comnig up with a new chip sometime this year and the Ryzen CPUs have the industry buzzing about AMD possibly blowing Intel away technology wise. Their multicore performance is much better than Intel and based on what I've been told by ON1 they are designing RAW to utilize all the cores (I have seen that it uses all 4 cores on my I5 processor).
Unfortunately if you do use AMD then you need to start with a fresh Windows install (and that means all fresh installs of all your software) as AMD commands are different then Intel commands. But the good news is if you have newish hardware in Hard Drives and such all you would need to do is wipe out the drive and install Windows on them. Also, you may need special ram for AMD but I'm not 100% sure on that.
I would probably future proof the computer by using at least 32 Gb ram (2 16 Gb modules) with 2 empty for 64 if need be. I would look at the Nvidia video cards as gamers claim they are the ones to get. I'd look at an older card like the 1060's with at least 3 GB memory (maybe more). Depending on your budget (I have speced out a system for about $1200 - it'll probably be the last computer I buy) you may want to include a M.2 drive as they run incredibly fast. If you have SSD drives - you can reuse them, newish power supply again you can use it, a good case, if your hard drive is newish as well ... bus speeds are now SATA 3 which are backwards compatible but you give up speed if the drive is below the standard.
Even though I have a computer speced, my son bought a HP I7 computer on black Friday that was such a low price and I was stupid not to jump on it. For the price i couldn't touch anything with it's specs . So before you build a computer I'd look around at off the shelf systems.
Unfortunately there is no guarantee that any system built will run RAW correctly at this point0
If you purchase Acronis True Image backup, they have a feature called "Universal Restore". I have used this feature several times to migrate from one hardware base to a completely different one. For instance from a Desktop to a Notebook, with different processors.
It is a great backup package, even without that feature. You create a bootable CD/DVD that can be used to backup and restore from one computer to a different one. I did this when I built my gaming computer last year. No need to reinstall Windows and all of the cool apps that you have installed from who knows where.
What Universal Restore does is basically this: It removes all of the hardware dependent Windows 10 drivers and such. Then when you boot the "universally restored drive" the first time, it goes out on the internet and downloads what it needs for your new hardware. Once you get the system up, you can then tweak it even more.0
Kevin, I used True Image for a long time before ultimately switching to Shadow Protect Desktop.
Shadow Protect has the same feature. I'd be surprised if they don't match up pretty closely feature-wise; they've both been around forever (so if they're still in business they must be doing something right).0
Leroy, with the ransomware virus potential, I have been running scripts before and after my daily backups. In the scripts I mount the drive that contains the backups and when the backup is finished, I dismount it. I know for a fact that if the drive is NOT mounted and accessible to the operating system, any ransomware that might slip thru my computer's protection will not touch the unmounted drives. Just something I thought I would pass along.0
Kevin, that's an interesting thought and something that has never occurred to me - malware attacking my backups. One thing a lot of people don't realize (and I learned not long ago) is that anti-malware is at least as important as anti-virus.
My backup software runs continuously - when I was still writing code it would back up my system every 15 minutes - now it's once an hour to save disk space. The backup image files allow me to restore my entire system (to the metal) in 1 hour increments from any point over the last 14 days, then for any day over the last 30 and then any week over the last 6 months.
One really nice thing about this system is that I can also mount an image as if it were a drive and copy files. That has saved my butt numerous times.
My backups don't run at night but backups from my workstation to my server do. But I could handle mounting/dismounting the volumes with the same script that copies the files. Thanks for bringing this up!0
I'm not an IT expert but when I asked suggestion to design the configuration for my new PC, several people Highlighted that for SW that manage raster images (such as PS, LR, PR) it is more important to have a high clock frequency for single core rather than have several cores with lower clock speed (this will be more usefull for vectoring graphics like CAD or games).
Thank to this advice last November I selected i5 8600k CPU, nvidia quadro P1000 GPU ( to have the possibility to manage 10bit images with PS), 32G RAM, asus rogs strix z390i motherboard. The HW works pretty well with PR 2019.0
Ps: I can not understand why ON support suggested gaming system since PhotoRaw operates with Raster graphics (gaming is more vectorial oriented)0
andrea, I purposely asked ON1 about what type of computer to get in the future and they answered a gaming system. I also asked about core use and they said they are developing RAW to use all the cores in a CPU. So putting what they said means a faster multicore CPU with a good or decent Graphics card. They didn't go into detail for me about what type of graphics engine they use and I assume (maybe wrongly) that the graphics card will handle whatever it needs to when thrown something to do. I will say that my current configuration doesn't use the graphics card constantly.
If you look at the specs for the program there is nothing that I see that tips the scale either way.
Based on what they said was thinking when the time comes to upgrade my computer I would look for a CPU that is faster on multicore which AMD Ryzen 2700x is (I believe it is around the same speed as an I7 8700 chip without being overclocked but runs all the cores at a higher speed). The GPU will be whatever is decent at the time without breaking the bank (as of today it's a Nvidia 1060)
What's great about this type of forum is the bits of info that maybe was given out and can be put together (and hopefully run the program)!0
Thanks to everyone that's contributed help so far. I'd been researching for a while before making my request for help here.
The suggestions here have given me a lot to think about, and reconsider. I didn't realize the importance of the number of cores. I have a half decent system now, but I didn't want to let my current specs influence everyone's input. Especially since I have no intention of upgrading, or reusing any of my present components. I want to have my system built from scratch by a local shop with my control over every component.
Besides, I've been unhappy with the speed of culling and the performance while masking in layers. Comments here, and in another forum thread make me wonder if the majority of my complaints are simply unresolved issues with the software.
Regardless, I'm still going to have my new system built. Just adequate is not good enough.
Now, I have to tell you what my present system is; Ryzen 5 1600 CPU, MSI B350 PC Mate MB, GTX 950 GPU, 16 GB RAM, 480 GB SSD for boot drive, 1 TB hard drive, BenQ PD3200U Monitor.
The monitor is the only thing I'll use with my new system.0
Reading several comments within this forum my perception is that PR is a very nice and powerful editing tools but unfortunately it is still quite unstable.
It is not clear why in certain cases, even if the minimum HW configuration requirements are exceeded, it run very slow.
The HW configuration seems to be important but today, unfortunately, we can not say which is the minimum specification to grant good speed results.
I agree with Vinny, it is very important the exchange of information and experiences we are doing in this forum. This help ourself in resolving issues but also provides precious inputs to ON1 developers to improve the product. Let's hope in continuous improvement and resolution of major bugs in the next release (we will ask for PR 2020 free upgrade to the marketing guys ;-)))0
This is something that dawned on me and I kind of touched on it somewhere in the threads I have been involved in.
We are talking about buying/building a system around a photo program - WTF? Spending over $1000 to make sure a program - 1 program works properly. I do understand that we have to upgrade computers every so often but If a computer runs other programs correctly then maybe it's time to switch programs. On mine, an older I5 with 16 Gb ram, DXO, Affinity and the basic Topaz Studio works fine. I've also tried ACDSee and Alien Skin software in the past and they worked as intended. I did try the beta of Luminar and it worked fine but couldn't get the production version to run.
I really like RAW but I also liked Alien Skin but it has less features. I liked ACDSee which is equivalent to RAW but is not as user friendly IMO but is very powerful. I can't get a handle on Topaz Studio and it may be because all the adjustments need to be bought. I seem to have a hard time with their layering system as well.
So - if my computer meets all my other needs it is less expensive to buy a different program then to buy a new computer. I added up "my future new computer build" and it does top out at about $1500 and that was so I can have a powerful computer that should handle RAW well ... I can get a new computer for 1/3 that price off the shelf and it should run any program that I throw at it faster than what I own. I don't game, my computer boots up in less than a minute, Internet browsing is quick and any office type document pops up on my screen in a second. We shouldn't need a CRAY supercomputer or IBM's Watson to run a photography program. John's computer is new enough to not have issues! An AMD Threadripper is more than enough to not have issues. An older I7 on a SATA 2 bus may run a little slowish compared to a newer I7 but shouldn't have issues. All of these are above the recommended requirements to run RAW; I believe the minimum CPU is a Core 2 Duo
Just something to think about going forward...0
I agree completely with you. Topaz and some of the effects in Topaz do run relatively slow, and I upgraded my notebook last year to a gaming type desktop and things have improved. I was a programmer for just shy of 40 years and I can sit on both sides of ON1's slowness. And I can make somewhat intelligent guesses at some of the issues that I am seeing. I have never used any adobe products for editing. But here are some points from my perspective:
The left hand pane, when used in anything other than browse, such as presets, LUTs, overlays, etc... ON1 is keeping each of these tiny panes with versions of your photo, updated whenever anything is done while you are editing a photo. Topaz does not do this type of updating. This is incredibly intensive processing done by ON1. If you hide the left pane, ON1 will stop trying to keep all of the tiny panes update. A real savings on processing power. I give ON1 a positive check with this feature, and I hide it most of the time.
The catalog has some serious issues with NDService subdirectory updates and this is new in 2019. I have disabled catalogs. There is something not quite right in their software. I give ON1 a negative check on this issue.
Overall performance, to me anyway, seems to not be up to today's standards. I am guessing here, but I know that the underlying code base and philosophy of how PR works in general, how the filters are processed when a filter lower in the stack is tweaked, etc, is critical. If the initial design has any snags or inefficiencies, it is well established by now.
What if they have discovered after the fact, that some portion of their code base should have been designed a different way, it could be a huge effort to tear down the code back to a baseline and change that to work the better way. I sort of doubt that they could afford to do that. However, it could also be that they are working in parallel and building a different code base for future release. One thing that jumps out at me is the history of edits that is missing in PR. To me, simply doing a one level undo is extremely dangerous if you are a professional and rely on this editing software. You would have to be doing continuous backup out side of ON1 to give you the ability to go back to a point in time 10 minutes ago in your editing.
But I am rambling...0
Kevin, re: undo - it's not a single level. You can Ctrl-Z your heart away. History list is a necessity, but my understanding is that it is in the works and will be a free update to 2019.
Layered file disk I/O needs to be looked at (General forum - https://tinyurl.com/y45glyg2). I imagine there are many areas that need optimization and that On1 is working on this stuff. I hope too many of the performance issues are not architectural.0
When did Ctrl-Z become multiple levels? I am sure it was only a single level recently. Perhaps 2018. or 2019.1? I thought I had issues with presets in the past only going back one undo.0
I'm not sure when it happened - I've just started using PR with the 2019 release.
Does anyone from PR participate in these forums? I'd expect someone to comment on this thread and also on this one (https://tinyurl.com/y2gsxm9k) where I ask for HW upgrade advice.0
I never quite understood why people want a history but I guess using presets is why!
I tend not to use them so editing and using Ctrl-z works for me. But there is kind of a history depending on what you're doing, the effects stack from bottom to top as you apply them. If you mask you can always view the mask and "erase" it if need be and the whole effect can be turned off. I guess if you applied a 28% mask you may not be able to duplicate it because of forgetting how much you did use but viewing everything is relatively easy IMO. Doesn't the preset come with its own stack and it's able to be masked as a whole?
I think the multi layered Ctrl-z came in 2018 as far as being unlimited. But I don't know how it works with presets.0
I certainly don't want On1 employees answering such questions when there are WAY more important issues on which, I hope, management has tasked them!0
Vinny. You make a really good point. Trying to build a system to run a software program that's still under development could be a futile endeavor. Who knows how long, if ever, it will take On1 to iron out the bugs in their program.
Even though I yearn for a more powerful system, it's time that I take a look at alternative programs. The cost of another program is insignificant compared to the cost of a major upgrade.
The features that brought me from Lightroom to On1 in the first place were; Dynamic Contrast and Grunge. Hopefully, I can find another stand-alone program that will have those features. I was previously using Topaz Adjust as a plug-in to Lightroom, but didn't like the process that the plug-in required.0
I was/am caught up in it as well. I am on my 5th computer in 40 years - I have always upgraded them when either they can no longer function in what I want it to do or the performance becomes so slow due to technology changes. This is the first time I was planning a monster build so that RAW can work as it is supposed to ... I can buy ACDSee for $100 or Alien Skin for $160! But if you are a computer gear junkie then owning a monster rig is what'll make you happy!
In the past 8 years of owning this current computer the only things I see that changed are bus speeds (I'm on SATA 2 and SATA 3 is the standard), overclocking is mainstream, computer memory can be faster, SSD drives, the introduction of a faster PCIe video interface and M.2 drives. A lot of technology but function or performance wise - not really affecting me yet. SATA 3 which you should be on brings the read/write speeds to 6Gb/s I believe I'm half that, M.2 drives should blow away the performance of any SSD SATA drive but they only read and write info, overclocking CPU and memory should produce a higher level of performance but based on videos I've seen only up to about 20% more.(If not overclocking some of the chip speeds are not all that much faster then my I5 which is running at 2.8 GHz) (and yes bus and memory speeds matter!). Video acceleration - not sure how this plays out in the world of photo software; quite honestly RAW doesn't use the video card all that much.
So with that said, your build is no slouch - Maybe (and this is me just thinking) upgrading the video card to a 1060 may help IF RAW goes to it and uses it. I'm not sure if more memory will help as I have noticed that usually RAW hovers around 2 Gb but every so often it will spike up. Something that I've always done is in msconfig I have told it to boot with all the cores - I'm not sure if this forces Windows to look at and use all the cores going forward but I do it. Stop the cataloging! If you are cataloging it uses a tremendous amount of system resources. As was said, collapse the preset preview. I have excluded RAW from Windows Defender; I noticed that every time I called up RAW Windows Defender would use about 20% of the resources.
But these are the workarounds to get RAW to work somewhat correctly; as far as when will ON1 get to it - I saw 2018.5 work the best on my computer - almost 2 years after the introduction of 2017 (basically 2017 and 2018 were the same platform).0
Vinny, history is useful for more than filters. In PS I can look through my edit history and, with one click, A-B an entire series of edits. I haven't upgraded PS since they stopped selling it so I'm still on CS6 which doesn't allow history editing (remove an edit from, say, 5 steps ago while preserving subsequent steps) but I hope as On1 adds this feature they'll keep this in mind.
You can A-B masks by copying them, then using reset/paste to toggle them on and off. I'm not sure about presets - I haven't started on them yet.0
Peter, someone with a knowledge of PR internals could answer this question in 15 minutes.0
I never knew how to use LR and PS together (I have CS5)stayed in PS so I never really used history. I bought DXO and then ON1 effects 9 was a freebie so I used them until 10 came out then used DXO and 10. I think it's a matter of getting used to something; I am so used to how ON1 does things I think that's why I have issues with ACDSee and Topaz ... Alien Skin was similar to ON1. Lets hope they fix things vs adding more to the program!0
> Maybe (and this is me just thinking) upgrading the video card to a 1060 may help IF RAW goes to it
Yes, there are many unknowns that WE cannot answer without input from On1. We have no way of knowing where to put our $$$ until On1 steps up and tells us.0
I do know that RAW uses multicore and it does use the GPU but you're right!0
This sounds more like a forum for beta testers than for a full product release. I've seen many posts with people buying fancy gaming machines and still, little to no improvement from On1. I checked the Mac side of this forum, thinking- maybe this program is built for Macs and not PCs. Nope, they're having the same issues as far as my surface skim of that forum.
I know that one never hears from folks who are not experiencing problems, but I'm begging to hear from any of those people on how they are escaping these issues. Other than the obvious.... that they are no longer using On1.
I can only gather (as others here have) that the problems for On1 are baked into the basic design of the program. That basic design, while the most elegant and simple end-user experience, is not well designed from a software/hardware build. Many, many updates that claim greater speed, but the core sluggishness continues.
I've anguished enough. I'm now relearning LR/PS. I don't ever see how On1 can rebuild this program from the ground up.0
To be perfectly honest back when I was trying other software every forum had people dissatisfied with the other programs as well; the problems even seemed varied as they do here. But I will say that ON1 seems to have the most problems and it was going away with the 2018 builds and they were reintroduced with the 2019 build.
Some people do not experience problems as you noted and you are absolutely correct in saying it would be interesting to hear how things are better for them. I believe one person said they went from an older machine to a newer machine and the problems went away ... but that is not the same scenario all the time. I have PS CS5 although not officially supported it may work but I also have Affinity, DXO and have installed Topaz to give it a try. But once 2019 is done with updates and if things are not much improved I too am thinking on moving on ... I updated this because of my photography club presentation otherwise I would have stayed with 2018.5 as it was working fine. It was thought that it was old vs new hardware or Windows vs Apple but it's not.
Maybe Photoshop with NIK although I wish DXO would come out with something all inclusive with Photolab and layering with NIK as a single program. Then there is ACDSee that is basically an all in one like RAW.
I do hope ON1 gets it's act straight! But with so many options out there if damage control isn't done soon then a lot pf people will be looking for the exits.0
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