Slow performance on a new, high end Win10 desktop build
I saw that there are several related threads on here but the discussions were all over the board. I didn't want to add to the noise so figured it made more sense to just open up a new thread that was specific to my issues.
I've been running ON1 PR for several years on a very high end ASUS ROG laptop. ON1's performance on that machine has always been "disappointing", to be kind. As many here have noted, ON1 Support isn't much help with these sorts of issues and my take is that they probably don't know much about Microsoft internals or ON1 code even. I am definitely not a Microsoft guy having spent the past many decades as a *NIX systems engineer. I do know more about MS than most MCSEs (which isn't saying much...). Reading these threads it's obvious that there are a few very high powered Microsoft experts in this forum. I'm hoping to benefit from their wisdom.
After several years of pain trying to get ON1 to perform at least marginally as well as Lightroom, I decided to just go ahead and build a new desktop that will be totally dedicated to post processing work. It's currently running an ASRock Z370M Pro4 mobo, 32 GB RAM (soon to go to 64GB), an Intel I7-8700K 6-core CPU and a 1 TB Samsung EVO SSD. Running Win10 Pro (currently not activated). Nothing is overclocked at this time and this machine certainly has enough juice to run some pretty intense software. Currently running OTB graphics although I do plan to install a 1060 Video card soon.
Did a clean ON1 install and was VERY disappointed that this machines performance is even worse than what I'm getting from my laptop.
Most obvious problems are that the sliders respond extremely slowly like I have a mouse lag problem or something. But for everything else non-ON1-related, the mouse response is very snappy.
If I hover over an effect it takes a VERY long time for the GUI to actually "see" the selection and render the changes to the image on the screen. Just switching from develop to browse takes quite a while.
I'm not using catalogs, BTW. I have my RAW images on an external USB 3.0 HDD but I've also tried processing RAW files that were on the SSD so I don't think it's related to USB speed.
Also, late in the life of PR 2018 I had a problem where I would export an image and when it came up in explorer, NONE of the develop or effects adjustments were in the finished displayed jpg image.... just my watermark. This problem "went away" after a few days.... well, it's back on the new machine running the latest version of PR 2019.2. The laptop, running the same version of PR 2019 does not (currently) have this problem.
The workaround for the above problem is to go into the browse module and do the export from there. These symptoms are 100% repeatable. I sent all kinds of info, samples, log files and so on to support and they pretty much gave me the "it will be fixed in the next release" runaround.
As I said, I am not a MS guy but I am, after all, a well seasoned systems engineer. I do know my way around under the hood and so far I don't see any Windows-side issues that could be causing any of this. ON1 PR is using about 4 GB RAM and around 10-20% of the total CPU power. I don't think ON1 has done much in the area of multithreading so I don't know that 6 cores versus the quad core in my laptop is getting me much. Sysinternals process explorer indicates that there isn't much ON1 distributed processing going on.
So if there is anything I can do on my end to get this sorted out I'd very much appreciate knowledgeable advice.
I received no errors when installing ON1. The registry seems fine. Memtest ran fine and I really beat the machine HARD running benchmarks (without any issues) before installing ON1. And as I said, there is nothing running on this box other than ON1 and a couple of systems/process monitoring tools. Yes, of course a $500 video card will help and I'll be doing that. But this is a lot more than just an on-board versus PCI video card issue.
Many thanks to all in advance!
And as I read elsewhere on this support forum, I did lower the GPU slider to the lowest setting. Yes, that helped a bit, but still it stuttered. And I think that defeats the purpose of having a powerful GPU.0
Yuti, I'm not interested in what other programs do, this was a tip specifically for On1 users with Windows, that's all.
If you don't use Windows, then I have no other suggestions, but I do know that you shouldn't be having the problems that you do.
I agree that turning the slider to it's lowest setting defeats the purpose, but a powerful GPU shouldn't need that anyway. Something else is going on between On1 and your PC, if I had an answer, I'd give it to you.0
I understand that you are not interested in other programs. I stated that just to question why On1 needs this, and why it cannot detect the GPU and use it fully on its own.
I use Win 10, with that custom built machine for On1. I've contacted support in the previous versions concerning the same problems, and all I got so far is basically "my fault" or no response. Well, I really don't want to contact support if the software worked without issues.
I do like On1's workflow, but the software itself has a lot to be desired. That is all. I find myself going back to Lightroom, Photoshop, and now Skylum, just because of the performance and less issues.0
I'm programmed out! I really have enough programs to keep me satisfied. ON1 2020 is running fine for me and I have DXO and Affinity as well. I did try cloning again tonight at 100% and 200% and it worked without a lag but it did blur a little, it snapped back as soon as I stopped cloning. I expect something to not work at current speeds or 100% correctly (blurring is mentioned by ON1) considering the age of my computer and the graphics card is relatively low end (GT 730 with 2 Gb memory); it does work as I expected. But I will say that I had to revert back to an older Nvidia video driver because something was causing 2020 not to work correctly. Since my card is obsolete I plan on keeping this driver forever since ON1 works well.
Rick - I have to agree with them that if you use other programs and compare what they do or how they run that it's hard to not be upset that one works and another doesn't. I don't plan on trying Luminar any time soon due to it not working on my computer. It should but doesn't. I don't use my DXO Photolab because it is cumbersome to use compared to RAW even though a lot of photographers claim it is better at image processing then Light Room. The speed at which I can do a photo is way faster in RAW. And Affinity although it's powerful leaves a lot to be desired in ease of use. Ultimately using DXO and Affinity would be a great idea but it is not all that time friendly.
I do agree with Rick that something's not right in how various Windows 10 computers handle the program. How is it that Rick's and my machines being older handle it somewhat OK but new AMD and Intel processors don't. I haven't programmed anything for over 40 years if you want to call a college course programming. Is it possible that they are writing code for older CPUs and GPUs? Is something going on with drivers in newer computers that make RAW not work correctly? Then others with new and old computers have opposite experiences than we have ... it just seems as I said it's hit or miss of having a good/bad experience with RAW.
I guess the answer is that we all have to go with the program works best for us. It may be RAW, Luminar, DXO, Topaz or ?0
Vinny Giannino: I have avoided responding to your comments because I don't want to come off as disrespectful but it's obvious, based on your own comments, that you are not a Pro or Prosumer Photographer and that you are only using a tiny subset of ON1's feature set. If your metric for acceptable performance is how fast a cloning operation takes, you are operating on a completely different plane than many of the rest who are contributing to this thread.
I bring this to your attention because ON1 makes quite a point of the "fact" that they have lots of customers (like you) who think the software runs blazingly fast. There are also several shills who regularly post on these forums stating things like, "I'm not seeing any problems with ON1PR at all!". The reason why I went with ON1 instead of CapOne was because I believed these stories and because ON1 is a local company and I prefer to support local businesses.
And for the record, no, I don't consider writing a program in basic 40 years ago in High School that prints "hello world" on the computer screen to be "programming". Further, you should consider that 2 GB is an insanely tiny amount of RAM. I have a 12 year old WinXP machine running 2GB RAM and it is barely useful as an e-mail client!
Folks here are not being "picky" as previously suggested. It's rather insulting to read thing like this. My expectation of any commercial grade software is that crashes/hangs are *RARE* occurrences and that software response is snappy.... no latency in any mouse-oriented operation, for example. As I noted, performance when exporting, doing panos and other batch type operations is less important to me compared to having them execute correctly. I mentioned them because these functions still perform VERY poorly and even a cursory look at what's going on with the CPU, GPU and other system resources shows that the coders still are not effectively doing multitasking and offloading operations to the GPU as most other competitive products do. Even doing the most compute-intensive operations, my six (x2) core CPU rarely goes over 50% and the GPU fans never even come on.
My biggest complaint about ON1, aside from their horrible customer support is their obvious lack of regression testing. I have yet to install an "upgrade" that didn't break several features that were important to me and worked just fine in previous versions.
I've posted several times that IMO, ON1 is having their software work done by an offshore third party. There are many factors that caused me to make this assumption and ON1 has so far not refuted this opinion. Suffice it to say that the last time I programmed something was a couple of hours ago. Perl, primarily although I am conversant in C and a couple of other compilable languages.I build my own computer systems and I've lead multinational development teams on scores of product initiatives. Including several years working at Intel and Boeing. I have sufficient hash marks to be treated with respect in this area and I know bad support and bad SQA when I see it. And I can also recognize a company that is run by executive staff who are completely disengaged in the day-to-day operations of the company. Craig Keudell said as much during a public interview several years ago.... a stunning statement by a CEO and especially the CEO of a then startup like ON1.
I like the feature set in ON1....it's basically LR and PS rolled into one. There is no one product out there as fully featured as ON1PR is, to my knowledge. If it worked reliably and if the performance was half way reasonable it would be worth the ~$180 per year for my Plus membership. I process between 100-250 images every week using a D850 which is "slightly" more high end than whatever 24mp rig you are using. I will be changing to the Fujifilm GFX system as soon as they drop the prices on their 50mp Rangefinder with the plan of doing most of my serious work with their GFX 100S. Unless ON1 gets their act together very soon I will be forced to go to Cap1. If ON1 can't handle my D850 RAW images there is no way it will be able to handle medium format files.
Also, unlike many on here I have neither the desire or inclination to implement a work flow that requires multiple software products. I used Lightroom (only) for many years and Gimp before that. Before Gimp came along I was shooting film.
I truly hope that ON1 gets serious about thoroughly testing their software before it is released to customers. The PR2020 did get a few weeks of customer beta testing which probably helped get a few bugs fixed prior to the full release. However PR2020 does have a couple of features that no longer work correctly so they obviously still have a ways to go.
If I was the Engineering VP of a company I would get one (maybe) reprieve if I shipped defective software. If I did it twice, I would be in the unemployment line. This expectation is not "picky", "fussy" or unreasonable. It's a fact of life in a marketing driven development environment. I am simply holding ON1 to the same standards that pretty much all professional Engineering Managers are held to in a commercial software development environment.
So before you post yet again on how swimmingly your antique boat anchor 2GB PC is running ON1PR, I hope you will reflect on what I've had to say.
I use a D810. And when I use 2020 on my D700 RAW file, it works great... LOL So, I think 2020 cannot handle large RAW files as one of its problems.0
To your comment of being disrespectful - I do photography for fun. I am not a prolific shooter and maybe take 50 or less photos a month. My needs are much different than a professional and in the past somewhere on these forums I have said I would not use ON1 if I was a professional. I'm not saying you are wrong but you shouldn't think that your photography needs are the standard that we all should measure good/bad to.
My comment about it working fine on my computer is based on my needs and no it's not just for cloning something out in a photo. When I go from browse to edit, it takes a few seconds to be 100% there but it responds instantly when I go from edit to effects and local adjustments. It takes a while to export but I only export 1 photo at a time. I don't print at home so no idea about that. Exporting is "just as fast" as DXO which is very slow so I gain nothing. But using DXO, exporting a tiff, opening up Affinity photo and using that is slower than using RAW 2020.
I'm not into building monster computers as it seems like you are but was planning on one this year with the new AMD Ryzen 2 line but it must suck on your part to spend all that money on a computer that runs ON1 as good as my older computer. I don't game, don't do much on it and photo editing is all that taxes it - Excel, Word, Chrome and all the other programs tend to pop onto the screen. I have even used an I3 laptop to do a little work with RAW and really it runs no problems for me. I am not a shill for ON1 as I have had miserable experiences myself; I looked at Luminar because I was unhappy with the 2019 performance but 2020 works slightly better for me. And as I said Luminar did not work on my computer so my experience with them is equal to your experience with ON1.
I shoot with a D7200 so a D850 is about twice the file size as my images. My computer has 16 Gb memory with the 2 Gb video card, it is all on a SATA 2 bus. So me being OK with the performance of ON1 is based on my usage and how well it runs on my computer. I won't even think about touching Topaz because of the age of my computer and it's requirements. And I wouldn't think it could handle larger photo files well although I did process a D850 NEF file on it without any major issues.
As far as the marketing hype - NEVER believe what you read! You have/had a 30 day window to get a refund and should use it. I waited until the official program was out before upgrading to 2020. The only feature that I "needed" was that it runs slightly better on my computer vs 2019.6; so if the program sucked I would have went for the refund. I did have a problem with the beta but as I mentioned above it was due to a Nvidia driver. Is it blazing fast - heck no. Is it everything it should be - nope - I have been saying for at least 2 years that they should stop adding features and get this thing to work 100% for everyone.
All companies lie about things, I work for a big corporation and see things that I don't understand how it goes the way it goes - but it does! I don't work for ON1 and know nothing about software programming as I said. What is great about living in a free world is we are allowed to make choices. I have DXO because 2017 sucked on my computer, bought Affinity because it did things that ON1 programs couldn't do at the time - plan was to use DXO with either 10.5 or Affinity and the process was too slow. For me I refuse to go Adobe, Luminar didn't work, Topaz now needs more of a machine, I like Exposure (formally Alien Skin) but ON1 kind of does more for me, can't afford Capture One, I have Affinity Photo but use RAW because as a package it works for me. And ON1 may work for others as well.
So if ON1 sucks for you, instead of saying that someone like me is wrong because my 10 YO machine works OK with it and your new machine sucks with it AND my needs are puny compared to yours - maybe it's time to reevaluate your needs, find another program that suits your way of processing photos and go with it. You certainly would be happier then pounding your head against a monitor infuriated by the fact it doesn't work for you! I did just that in 2017 with ON1.0
Thank you for making my points for me. By your own statements you are not in the same league as most of the other contributors to this thread. I have tried hard not to be dismissive of your opinions even though you are quite obviously dismissing mine and in a rather disrespectful manner.
If you're happy with ON1's performance than I am very happy for you. But the more you post the more obvious it becomes that you have very myopic and ill-informed views on a variety of topics. I am not making assumptions about you here even though you have made quite a few [incorrect] assumptions about me. I am merely reacting to your own statements which clearly demonstrate that many of your contributions to this thread have not been especially productive. Your "like it or lump it" and "if you are unhappy with the product ask for a refund and get lost" is insulting in the extreme.
I'm not looking for a fight and as I said, I hesitated for many months before responding to some of the more preposterous statements you've made. I would submit the following for your consideration though: You've made your point, abundantly and consistently that ON1PR works mostly very well for you. You have been equally clear that in your opinion those of us who would like to see ON1 perform better are either extremely fussy or perhaps don't know what we are talking about. Your last paragraph is extremely insulting and demonstrates how little you know about computer systems, photography, software development, best practices and image post processing.
Flame away if you are unable to control yourself but I am done responding to your insults and uneducated opinions. As you say, everyone has a right to say what they think even if their opinions are poorly conceived and have no basis in actual fact. If you are unwilling to educate yourself perhaps you could at least take the time to actually read the subject of this thread. Since you say you are quite happy with ON1's performance a simple statement of that opinion should suffice. Repeatedly insulting and contradicting others who disagree with your opinion when you admit to knowing pretty much nothing about the topic adds very little value to the conversation.
I'd done responding to you. Have a nice day.0
If you see this great but if you don't this will die here!
You really need to re calibrate your idea of being disrespectful! Back handed comments like you made originally are disrespectful. I'll give you that you may be a better photographer than I am, I won't dispute that but more megapixels or a shiny new camera as you needed to say doesn't equal a better photographer - it shows you have money. Quite a few "pro" photographers are going the micro 4/3 route.
You say I'm myopic - I gave you both sides that for someone like me it works and if I was a professional I wouldn't use it. Yep that's myopic all right. What part of that don't you understand? I didn't give reasons but I didn't think I needed to spell it out. I never said it's blazing fast on my computer, you put that as something I think it is. I'm not disregarding your issues, just the opposite - I have for years said that they need to stop putting in more stuff and concentrate on getting this to work at 100% ... maybe you didn't read that part. I also said that for me and my usage and camera at this point RAW works fine but I wouldn't want to process larger files. Yes, I said I processed 1 D850 NEF file and it didn't crash my machine but it was slower but nothing major happened - not blazing fast again!
I am NOT getting crashes at this point and have also said for years there should be a way for ON1 to be able to figure out why one machine works well and another machine doesn't. I am not a 40 year veteran of programming like you and don't really know if it can be done. But I think you are equating me saying that since I have really nothing to complain about that everything is great. The opposite is true - there's nothing more frustrating to spend money and not get what you were expecting. There is something wrong if a new computer can't run the program properly. I expect any program to run slower on a 10 YO computer vs a new computer. But that doesn't mean that whomever has a system that's working great or satisfactorily are shills. That would be similar thinking that since you have been complaining a lot you are a troll. And there will be shills and trolls on the internet.
As far as how I use a program - it's just a photo manipulation program and I have used the cataloging, editing, effects and local adjustment. I have done a 12 layer PSD and have used various masks. No, I don't print from RAW and I tend not to use the presets. You tell me what is it that I'm missing ... wait I don't use tethered shooting and I don't share to social medial from RAW. What have I missed? Every video I have watched for ON1 pretty much covers what I have done. Is it that because you shoot 250 photos a week you are more qualified in what you say? What more do you use in the program that I don't know about?
As far as spending money on a build for photo processing - I was planning on spending a lot on a new build and it would really suck if the program worked the way it does on my old computer. So it must suck on your part to have spent a lot to get zero benefit from it. I actually do feel bad for people like you who invested the money and get nothing out of it. But then I got to say I question the logic of someone with myself included in spending $1500 or more on a system for a $99 program to run. On the plus side for me, I didn't spend that money and the program works OK - win/win for me but it could have turned out different had I upgraded.
Helping people - I think I have posted a few things in the forum that has help some people, I don't know what you have posted in helping people but I freely share what I've found to help anyone who may need it. If you think I'm a no nothing don't take any advise from me but if I help just 1 person then I'm happy to share. Everything that I have posted in trying to help people has been factual problems that helped me at one time or in conjunction with other solutions. But on the opposite side, I have complained a lot about the various versions of this program starting with 2017 because of the issues they have had. I've even done it on their FB group which posts quickly get taken down.
Now for the part of 'get a refund and go away' - I didn't say that, you inferred that. I talk with my money! I got a complete refund in 2017 which included Plus because it was a dog. ON1 did right by me! But if you are supporting a company that is taking your money and you are not getting anywhere with them - walk away! I worked for a big corporation that spent a lot of money to train us you never want customers to walk away - it's a bad thing! You're still a customer and can get onto these forums if you'd like but I would imagine with 250 photos per week if you found a better program you'd be either editing them or on their forum ... it's that simple! Why am I back, not that you care, but because they did right by me and 2018 wasn't as bad, 2019 was OK and 2020 is slightly better. I tried the programs I listed before and RAW just sat better with me.
Like I said, re-calibrate your way of thinking what disrespect really is. You don't have to like me and I don't have to like you but your way of thinking is NOT 100% correct.0
Ok, you guys, let's just drop this right here. No one is listening anymore and no good is coming out of it.
Just for the record, Yes, Vinny has been very knowledgeable and helpful in these forums.0
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