New nested keywords is terrible.
I go thru and nest multiple keywords everything looks good, then the individual keyword comes back. Go thru and make check if the keyword is still linked to the original and sometimes it has a couple of photos in other times none. Clean them up and delete the duplicate keywords, bam they come back again. I have just wasted several hours on this and now I am done.
It seems to me the keywording system is not clearing old keywords that have been modified in any way — capitalization, nesting, deleting, etc. The old keywords seem to remain in the photos and their exif files even though the program pops up a dialog saying it is searching for the photos. At best you wind up with both copies of the keyword making an even larger mess. Report it to support. The more people that report the problem the greater the pressure to get it fixed.1
That's part of the problem. I did a test with a single new photo: assigned a hierarchical keyword, A>B>C after ensuring nothing of the hierarchy was in the keyword list (capitalised or not). Closed and reopened ON1 and A, B and C were now listed as separate keywords, as well as in the hierarchy. The photo only showed having the hierarchy assigned, and the individual keywords had no indication of being assigned to anything.
I've raised this specific issue with support, as well as a more general issue regarding keywords in 2019.51
To add: I also noticed the the XMP and ON1 sidecar files have the keywords in both forms, separately and in hierarchy.0
Agree with all comments above. In addition to slow response and several crashes already. I have dropped back to 19.2.
Writing a support ticket now.0
The keyword problem is leaking into LR if you fall back to that.0
That is to be expected as the keywords are written to the xmp file.0
I have been doing some investigations. As I have not committed to On1 the photos I have processed in it have either been saved as Tiff files and synchronised back to Lightroom or were just experiments. So I had nothing to lose by totally removing On1 2019.5 and creating a copy of a set of folders holding my recent images and a set of test images. From the copy I deleted everything except the RAW files and made the top level folder the catalogued folder.
I imported the file of hierarchical keywords I exported from Lightroom and re-applied the keywords to the files I have been experimenting with.
I did some processing and no sign of individual keywords reappearing, hierarchical keywords working exactly as I would expect.
I then looked at one of my original folders which had the original On1 sidecar files in it. (For images previously keywords in Lightroom and written to XMP sidecar files) While I could still access images via hierarchical keywords the single keywords used in this folder started to reappear.
I then compared the On1 files for the same image from the two folders, so one that originated in 2019.2 then accessed in 2019.5 and one that was created and only accessed in 2019.5.
The only difference I could spot was that in the 2019.2 the list of individual keywords was not in the hierarchical order but in 2019.5 it was. I wonder if this mismatch is enough for 2019.5 not to recognised that the individual keywords map on to the hierarchical structure, and then treat them as new top level non-hierarchical keywords?
Before I wiped everything I had managed to reduce the number of extra keywords but that took a lot of effort finding the images, removing them from images that they were on and then deleting the keyword. But as has been stated they had a habit of reappearing. This could be due to delays in cataloguing meaning that not all files with a keyword came up in the results of earlier searches, but when they were catalogued and accessed then the keyword re-appeared. Alternatively, the process for removing keyword from database and On1 sidecar files doesn't do a complete job.
From all this I believe that in itself the 2019.5 hierarchical keyword mechanism is doing what it is supposed to, but it has major problems with handling keywords that were written to On1 sidecar files in 2019.2/held in On1 database.
As an aside after wiping everything I am seeing the correct capture dates for images that were not showing them after 2019.5 upgrade, which could point to this being another area where 2019.5 is having problems handling information written by 2019.2, but is not actually corrupting the information in the Raw file.
If On1 can sort out handing the 2019.2 information correctly then things may settle down if they can build this into a bug-fix release.1
I've just done a similar test and agree that the problem stems from mishandling the keywords from 2019.2. A new 2019.5 install, ie with no previous ON1 RAW keywords, seems to handle the hierarchical keywords created in LR ok.1
I have been struggling for several days and many hours trying to clean up my keywords because they were all messed up as soon as I installed 2019.5.
As mentioned above, ierarchical KW entries (Australia < Ningaloo) also showed up flatly as (Australia, Ningaloo) in the KW field, but double-clicking on any of the flat KWs in the list didn't result in an empty grid view. Deleting them from the list didn't delete them from the KW entry of the photo.
I have so far spent some 20 hours in trying to understand the underlying mechanisms and to get rid of those unwanted duplicates, but they tend to return after restarting ON1.
Also, in many cases ON1 would stop responding when encountering an image with
Australia < Ningaloo, Australia, australia, Ningaloo, ningaloo
forcing me to restart only to get stuck again on the same image which ON1 automatically selects on restart. The only way out of the loop ist to restart while holding the Shift key to force delete the Settings file.
For the time being, I'm discussing the issue with ON1 Support via a ticket. They are very responsive but I don't have a solution yet.0
I think there is another problem here with non RAW files if coming from LR originally. LR doesn't use a sidecar, XMP, file for JPGs etc. The keywords are embedded as tags so ON1 RAW doesn't recognise the hierarchy when processing the image.1
Whenever I've created keywords in the past, whether in Lightroom, ACR , Bridge or ON1, I've always embedded them into the file itself because I hate .xmp sidecar files all over the place. In addition, that way they can be read by all the other apps. ON1 2109.5 decided to overwrite nearly all of mine with its own version of them.1
Hmm, forget my last comment. Having done a hex view (using Irfanview) on a couple of JPGs the keywords were embedded there in both hierarchical and list form. On a test system with 2019.2 I deleted all the keywords in the keyword list & installed 2019.5. It picked up the keywords from the test JPGs and created the keyword hierarchy cleanly, no flat entries.1
Just discovered this thread, after spending several hours trying to deal with the issues you all have listed. Any one get a fix from ON 1 support?0
Unfortunately it is a total mess and the only way I found to fix it was to go through and delete all .XMP files, delete the keywords from the catalog, reimport them and start over.
A massive waste of time as I had over 25k images cataloged.
But, and you need to be careful of this, if you use other products like Lightroom that write XMP you cannot do this unless you turn off write XMP in those apps first.1
Thanks for the quick, but discouraging response. I'm looking at about 35K images. Just wasted the day trying to eliminate the non-hierarchal terms, only to have them reappear randomly.
I'm about ready to try your suggested solution - drastic as it is.
Question, if I delete the xmp files, won't I lose any of the edits I've made to the pics in ON1?0
ON1 edits are stored in the .on1 file, if other programs store edits in the xmp you'll loose them if you trash the xmp file.
I've been working through this today too. I've found so far that once I've corrected things for one keyword using the Embed Metadata command will update the xmp file so deleted keywords don't come back. I'll select all the images having the keyword I'm using then issue the command. Tedious but it seems to be working.0
XMP is not used to store ON1 edits, they are held in the ON1 files. In my case I don't have JPG in my catalog. But the keywords "should" only be embedded in JPEGS after processing, I.d. for export, so I would expect that ON1 wouldn't do that ... but I would test it first.0
The problem is as I see it the edits are not being propagated throughout all the different locations they could be stored. When the system rereads the file they were not propagated to they come back.0
Unfortunately though the basic architecture of the way images are handled in their folders leads to scattering of ON1 and XMP files mixed in with the images. It was suggested to them that they change the architecture to use a ON1 sub-folder to store all their application specific details but they chose not to.
It would have made it so much easier to find all the relevant files.0
Just an update, got this from ON1 support yesterday. It didn't fix the problems for me, but might help someone else.
Our Development team completed a major update to ON1 PHOTO RAW 2019.5. This update (2019.5.1) is highly recommended for all Photo Raw 2019 users.
You will not need to uninstall the program prior to installing from the links in this email.
Simply download and install on top of what you already have currently installed:
The links above are for build 2019.5.1.7136 which address several bugs that were discovered after the shipping of our 2019.5 update in May.
For a complete list of issues addressed in the 2019.5.1 patch update release, please view this knowledge base article:
There are still some issues being worked through but they are much improved over earlier 2019 releases.0
I have all the same problems with keywords. Recently I decided to put all the "loose" keywords in a single top-hierarchical keyword (which I named AAAAAAAA, to have it as the first entry), so that I could find and use the hierarchical list I have (instead of having to search for the top-level keywords in a long list of single keywords). I then went through writing all the metadata to all images, including writing sidecars for RAW files. I hoped that by writing everything to the images, there would be no "loose" keyword anymore. It didn't help. My list keeps on being messed up with individual keywords, which I then drag to the AAAAAAAA keyword to get it out of the way. But I can keep on doing that, as single keywords keep on getting put back in the keyword list. Certain keywords then become visible as AAAAAAAA<Keyword in the keyword field of the image. But, spontaneously, all of a sudden my whole list of hierarchical keywords was put in AAAAAAAA, and the original AAAAAAAA was also put in there. This resulted in some keywords showing up as AAAAAAAA<AAAAAAAA<Keyword. I cleaned that up, and it happened a third time, so I'm now having keywords that show as AAAAAAAA<AAAAAAAA<AAAAAAAA<Keyword. It seemed to happen when Photo Raw hang and I had to ForceQuit and restart, but also upon a normal start.
I also found that searching on these keywords, don't result in images being found, whereas using "proper" keywords, could be used for filtering on keywords. If I search however on "troublesome keywords" using the filter option 'Everything', images are found.
Would I have 100 images, I would just clear up each and every image. But I have thousands, and it's virtually impossible to do that. If I would have a small number of "faulty" or "troublesome" keywords, I could delete those. But this list has now resulted in 200 to 400+ (I didn't count; it just seems very a very long list) of those "faulty" ones. I was about to start sorting it out by filtering images by searching on the most used "faulty" keywords using the 'Everything' option and then labelling those images with a proper hierarchical keyword of my master list, and delete the "loose" keyword. I thought of doing that because I thought that the origin of the problem was in having inherited keywords from Capture One, being under the impression that keywords written by Capture One, were not compatible with the way Photo Raw handles keywords. Reading all the above, I no longer think that is the case.
So I'm now stuck with a keyword system that doesn't really work.0
I have been battling with this problem, exactly as you describe it, for weeks. Except that I have some 20'000 photos. I have a total of 5 top level keywords (Places, People, Nature, ...) , all other keywords are hierarchically classified under these keywords. I have spent weeks in trial and error and was able to reach a state where everything looked as expected. But as soon as ON1 scanned the catalog again and I found all keywords splattered outside the hierarchies. Double-clicking these keywords didn't reveal any of the associated photos.
There are some other issues, like I have keyword that partly contain the same string, such as "Perth" and "Perth City". When trying to the delete the keyword "Perth", it will also propose to delete "Perth City" in the same swoop. But even if I accept, it will not delete the keywords from the photos at all and they will reappear after ON1 is relaunched.
BTW, I removed ON1 completely and re-installed it. I even installed it on a brand new PC, to no avail.
I have sent numerous well documented examples to ON1 support and they finally advised me to hold back because they are working on improving the program.0
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