This very annoying bug with Tone Enhancer and Curves Effects...
It is mentioned in a couple of posts here (several people reported it in the beta version and in the final release), and as far as I'm concerned, I sent two reports to the tech support (log, files, video capture, etc.). But I can't see any feedback on this very very annoying issue in ON1 PR 2020.
If I use a Tone Enhancer or a Curve filter in Dev the image takes about 2 minutes to be reopened. Two minutes with the beachball spinning (on my fast iMac)!!!
Same if I copy-paste settings which include TE or C effects to another picture.
These Effects are essential (you can even see on ON1 website a video tutorial on how to make beautiful B&W with Channel mixer+Curves...) and this weird bug make ON1 really unusable in a serious workflow perspective.
Any similar experiences or tips?
-
Have you added an SSD for the program's Scratch space & PerfectBrowseCaches? Doing that gives the program a significant performance boost.
I tested this by adding a Curve to an image. I returned to the browser then went back to edit mode and the image was ready for editing almost instantly. Adding a Tone Enhancer and making a curves adjustment there (basically reversing the previous Curves edit) and again the image was ready in less than 1 second.
I Quit the program and flushed the system's RAM then launched the program again and took the photo back to edit. This time it did take a few seconds to be prepared and become ready for editing but certainly nothing near 2 minutes. I made a few more edits with the TE, returned to browse and back to edit and the image was immediately ready.
I have my photos on an external SSD and use a 2nd SSD for the Scratch & Cache spaces.
0 -
Hi Brian,
I thank you for your tests and feedback.
If you want to test this issue like I do, you have indeed to quit the program and relaunch it and then reopen the problematic picture in Dev. Or, work on another image, back to browse and open the TE/C set image in Dev again. Hope I make myself clear...
If you just go back and forth to Browse and Dev, there is no problem indeed (session cache I guess).I made the same test as you: cleaning cache, quit ON1 and reopen it, on the same image in Browse and then go to Dev: 1mn55s before I can take back control.
Regarding the system, I have the scratch and cache on an HD-USB3 and files on another HD-USB3 (I have 3Tb of pictures on a 8Tb 7200rpm disk and no budget and no willing to buy 8Tb SSDs...)
Please note that I have absolutely no issue with that configuration (excellent performances) with all my other RAW softwares: LR, Capture One, Luminar 3, DXO PL3, whatever the settings I make... and no problem neither with ON1 PR as long as I do not use these two Effects... Everything goes quick and fast.
I do not doubt that a SSD can boost somehow the performance, but it's clearly not the point.0 -
When you say HD-USB3 I'm guessing that is a spinning platter disc drive? I highly recommend replacing that with an SSD for the scratch space. The photos are not as important because the image file is not constantly being accessed during editing but the scratch drive is. It is in constant use during editing and the faster the program can access that space the less slowdown there will be in your work flow. I fully understand not wanting to invest in an SSD for all those photos. :)
Comparing the performance of ON1 with other apps is pointless as ON1 does not work the way the other programs do. It places far more of the workload on the GPU than other programs do and getting all the individual layers loaded and rendered is why there is lag when entering editing of an image when it is first reloaded.
0 -
I think I was the first person to identify this issue on these forums and I am definitely still suffering from it.
Brian, while it may not be fair to compare On1's performance with other applications I feel that it is totally correct to compare 2019 with 2020. I have just run a test with just adding a Curves filter to a RAW image, reloading On1 and then going from Browse to Edit on both 2019 and 2020. The long delay only occurs on 2020, so it would appear that something has happened in 2020 to cause this delay.
I have experienced it on both Mojave and Catalina. I am running an 18 month old 24" 4K iMac with 32 Gbyte of RAM. System and applications are on internal SSD, with separate external SSDs for scratch/catalogue files and current photos, external disks connected using USB-C. So I would say that my system is reasonably well configured to maximise performance. Like Ralph I am experiencing good performance with On1 2020 except when opening an edited RAW file for the first time after restarting On1, and only then if the edits include either or both of Tone Enhancer or Curves filter. So far I have not identified any other filters that cause this long delay on going from Browse to Edit.
I have found that the delay occurs when opening both RAW and JPG files, it does not occur when opening Tiff files. (Exported my original test image as both Tiff and JPG for use in this test.)
My RAW files are from both Olympus OMD-EM5 mk 2 and OMD-EM1 mk2, and both suffer from the delay. I have also used a .CR2 file which was one of the example files in last year's CookBook course and applied a standard preset that contained a curve filter, and experienced the delay, so I don't think that there is anything linked to my files or way or working.
ON1 support say that they cannot duplicate this problem. I have supplied them with a 2 minute screen capture of nothing happening and pointed out that I hit the problem with a file that they included in a course and a standard preset. Still waiting to hear back.
Can anyone who experiences this delay please submit a problem report to On1 to flag that it does happen, and from comments on this forum it would appear to happen to quite a few people, and that it does need to be resolved as soon as possible.
0 -
I agree, this needs to be reported by all who experience the problem so it can be fixed. As I reported I do see a delay but not the 2 minutes that others are reporting. That could be because I was playing with a test file with limited edits and the more filters the image contains the longer the delay or additional curves/TEs could compound the delay.
I'm going to write something up for them too.
0 -
Brian, my tests have involved simply adding a single Curves filter to a RAW image, no changes in Develop, no other filters and no adjustments to any settings in Curves filter. So just the presence of a Curves filter triggers the delay, all the other reasons for taking time to open a file are not relevant.
I came down to this by process of elimination having hit the delay on fully edited images, working down to what is the least change that can be made that triggers the delay. Same process led to identifying that Tone Enhancer also triggers the delay.
Can you confirm that you are testing using a RAW file? In my tests Tiff files do not suffer from the delay.
0 -
That's exactly what I did David and my delay was only seconds. Yes, I was working on a .cr2 file. My laptop is the same age as your iMac with only half the RAM. There must be some other factor in play.
I have all anti-virus and malware and other active drive monitoring software including Spotlight set to ignore the scratch SSD. You might want to check your s/w for that.
You mentioned having separate SSDs for everything, do they have their own direct connections to the computer or are they sharing a hub? My Pictures drive is connected through a dock/hub with the Wacom tablet but it is normally the only drive on it when I'm editing. My Scratch drive has its own direct connection.
0 -
Brian, disks have their own USB-C connections, no sharing.
Given that it is the same hardware configuration in use for both 2019 and 2020 tests and problem only occurs in 2020 then I doubt if actual hardware performance is an issue, and certainly not something that should cause the length of delay some of us are seeing. Even if it was then why only for Curves and Tone Enhancer filters, and why only for RAW/JPGs and not Tiffs.
I did have real-time virus protection turned on for the external volumes, but turning it off makes not difference, likewise excluding volumes from Spotlight search. Also Time Machine was not running a backup at the time. As far as I can see the only application running real-time monitoring of files was On1 and its Catalogued folders. I have tested loading file from both catalogued and non-catalogued folders, same delay.
Bottom line
- same hardware and system configuration and test of Curves filter does not hit problem in 2019 but does in 2020 - only change is running 2020 not 2019
- same hardware and system configuration editing RAW files but not including Curves or Tone Enhancer filters - no delay on first load of edited file in On1 2020 session
- same hardware and system configuration loading unedited RAW file in 2020 does not hit problem but loading it once Curves filter added hits problem - only change is addition of Curves filter (and same for Tone Enhancer)
From this I have to conclude that something has changed in 2020 Curves & Tone Enhancer filters that is causing this delay that does not occur with any other 2020 filters and did not occur at all in 2019, all tests done in same system environment.
If some people are experiencing this and some are not then it is possible that there is something in the system environment that is reacting with the 2020 Curves and Tone Enhancer filters to trigger this delay, but given no issues with 2019 suggests that the fault probably lies with what ever might have been done to RAW/JPG loading in producing 2020.
As Tone Enhancer has Curves options I wonder if this might indicate that looking into the actions of Curves is the best place for On1 to start?
0 -
Thanks for all that David. I know sometimes it seems I'm asking the obvious but it's only obvious to those who can see it. :) I'm just trying to cover all the bases.
I agree with your assessment that it has something to do with how curves are being handled in 2020, it is the common element in the 2 filters. Hopefully the company can figure it out for the next release.
0 -
Thank you David for your testimony and therefore your support! And for specifying this point I forgot: no such problems with ON1 2019.
There is undoubtedly a problem with these two specific filters (and yes probably the Curves) and it does not depend on system configuration (scratch SSD or whatever). Although we can observe different behaviors in different situations, as usual.
Brian for your information I work on a 27' iMac on Mojave, i7 4GHz, 32Gb RAM, Radeon R9 M395X 4 Go, system and apps on SSD. So I don't think I have to deal with a weak computer.
I can't really agree with your input on ON1 vs other software comparison. Unless having to acknowledge that using ON1 implies radical changes in the hardware configuration, which is weird...If you get the ear of the support about the Curves Filter, can you please claim a larger graph and the ability to erase the inflexion points by dragging them outside the graph? 😉
Thank you both for this conversation.
0 -
The ability to delete inflection points is something the program really needs. There is a suggestion for that on the ON1 Photo RAW Project page where we can vote for it. https://www.on1.com/products/photo-raw/ideas/idea/remove-points-from-curve-resetting-individual-curves/
0 -
It has now my vote!
0 -
I will add my comment. Using 50mb NEF RAW images, scratch SSD I normally get about a minute delay loading an image into EDIT (BUT).
Scenario 1: add curve to image, click on BROWSE and exit ON1. Open ON1, image in BROWSE, click on EDIT = 1 minute (approx) RAM usage immediately goes to 15 GB+
Scenario 2: add curve to image, click on BROWSE, click on other image, click back to edited image and load into EDIT = 1-2 seconds. I suppose the image is still held in RAM, RAM was not released by clicking on another image in BROWSE
Scenario 3: add curve to image, click on BROWSE, click on other image, load into EDIT, click back to BROWSE, click on original edited image and load into EDIT = 1 minute (approx) RAM usage immediately goes to 15 GB+. I suppose the second image in EDIT cleared the RAM so ON1 had to redo image 1 again. Same result as S1, but not exiting ON1 to release RAM.
0 -
Hi Chris, please submit your findings to support with the Submit a request link below. Be sure to include the information requested on the page https://on1help.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360018405111-How-to-submit-a-problem-to-ON1-Tech-Support-A-Step-by-step-Guide
0 -
Having had another response from On1 saying that they cannot reproduce the problem I thought of something else to test.
I had another userid set up on my system which has never used On1. Logging into this id I repeated the test of adding a Curves filter to an unedited RAW file, reloading On1 and then switch from Browse to Edit for this file.
This time I did not experience any delay.
So it looks as though some corruption has crept in somewhere.
I have updated On1 with the results of this test and asked for the up to date instructions for complete removal of On1 so that I can do a full clean restore since I am guessing that this is going to be the only way to resolve the problem.
Oh what fun.
0 -
After a lot of testing I narrowed the problem down to something nasty in the Export Cache folder in <userid>/Library/Application Support/On1/On1 Photo Raw 2020.
Deleting this folder seems to cause On1 to recreate it from scratch and I am now not having, so far at least, any delays switching between Browse and Edit when accessing an image with Curves and Tone Enhancer filters added on first load of On1.
I have sent a copy of the corrupted folder to On1 to let them investigate why corruption in this impacts Browse/Edit switching and just for images with Curves and Tone Enhancer filters, and how the corruption occurred in the first place.
This seems to have solved the problem for me, and explain why not everyone is seeing it, you are welcome to try it yourself but at your own risk. If you are not seeing your userid's Library folder in Finder then Google how to make it visible, I have run out of energy to give details here!
0 -
Thank you David for your deep insight on this problem. You have probably find the core region of this bug, better and faster than ON1 support team...
I did the same, renamed the ExportCache folder for ON1 to recreate it, and zero delay in the opening of the curves set pictures. So yes it works. Until when? we'll see...My general feelings about all this:
I spent a huge amount of time with ON1 2019, sending numerous bug reports to ON1 tech support. This 2019 version was, all year long, a beta version.
Yet I decided to invest again in the 2020 version because I really like the foundations of this software. But I can't bear any longer heavy bugs like this one, I have work to do...
And I want to say again that the RAW engine of ON1 needs a serious upgrade, regarding the (poor) way it manages the highlights (I post several feedbacks on this subject).
So as a main RAW software, I decided to put ON1 aside, until further notice. At the best, it is an excellent plugin for specific development purposes.0 -
Thanks for all your investigation David. Hopefully it will help the company find the source of the problem.
0 -
I can confirm that trashing the export cache speeds up the switch from Browse to Edit. It was taking 30-45 seconds, now it's almost but not quite instantaneous. I believe most of my photos have a curves layer brought over in the migration process from Lightroom.
0 -
It got rid of my delays also.
0 -
If my solution helps please contact support.
Despite my sending my corrupt ExportCache file and screen recording showing just restoring that one file to working environment triggers the delay they are unable to reproduce the problem on any of their systems. So I suspect they are not really working on finding a solution to under lying cause.
0 -
I just finished writing up a support request with a link to this discussion. :)
If their Export Cache folders do not have the corruption that causes the problem they will not be able to duplicate the problem. If they cannot duplicate a problem it gets a lower priority for fixing because it is going to be much harder to figure out where to start looking for the cause of the corruption.
0 -
I have added my voice.
0 -
I report all this with the link to this conversation early November.
3 weeks ago, Stevie from Tech support, wrote me that they are further investigating.
Wait and see.
I didn't use ON1 that much these las weeks, nonetheless it seems that trashing the export cache get rid of the problem. No more freezings even with curves adjusted pictures.0 -
Same for me: I deleted (actually renamed) the export cache folder, no more delays.
My question is: how long will this fix last?
0 -
Thank you, Thank you. I too have been suffering this ridiculously slow transfer between Browse and Edit when Curves and or Tone Enhancer is used (most of my images use them). Renaming export cache and allowing a rebuild has sped up the transfer at least 8 fold. Now takes about 5 seconds as opposed to 40+ seconds. Appears problem does indeed lie in the export cache folder.
0 -
It is not appearing as “there is an update available” but a new patch release is now available to download. (I got it via “My Products” on On1 site and then downloading the Mac installer).
I reinstalled a corrupt ExportCache before updating to confirm the delay when moving from Browse to Edit with Curves filter applied, there was. I then ran the installer and tested again, this time there was no delay.
So it looks, on a quick test, that On1 have identified and fixed the problem, or at least on Macs.
0 -
I got an email several days ago, with a link to the patch release. So far, all is working well.
0 -
I guess I am missing something, but I cannot find "My Products" on the ON1 site?
0 -
It appears in drop down if you hover over the sign in icon at the right hand side of menu.
However try https://on1help.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360032741611-ON1-Photo-RAW-2020-Release-Notes-Download this gives links to downloads and installation instructions.
0
Please sign in to leave a comment.
Comments
31 comments