New User Help Request - Pro Photographer Transitioning From Aperture ... and so far disappointed and struggling
Looking to the photographic community for help. Long story repeated... Aperture user professional photographer for decades... Tried to convert to LR many times... couldn't due it because of speed and ergonomic issues... was directed toward On1 as closest third cousin three times removed...
CLEAR ITEMS I AM LOOKING FOR HELP WITH...
1) No import button? menu driven?... but screen real-estate given to a "print" button... what is the proportion of imported photos to printed photos in todays workflow?
2) When rating a photo with stars or colours... the thumbnail in the strip is not visibly changing at all (I must be missing something here)
3) To crop a photo (D810 RAW file) takes ~ 2 minutes with a strobe-show of pop-ups... and then after the "resize" is completed out of its unnecessary walk in the park, the crop is destructive... I cannot understand this.
What am I missing?
Thanks!
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1) The Import command is used for transferring images from your camera's SD card to wherever you store your photos. Importing is not necessary but a convenience as it allows you to apply metadata and/or presets to the photos as they are being transferred. See page 47 of the User Guide.
2) I'm not sure what is happening here. I can see both Ratings and Labels in the Filmstrip and changes to either are reflected immediately. For me, this works in both the Browser and Edit modes. You might want to contact support about this.
3) You are using Resize which is an advanced exporting feature and yes, it is destructive but only to the exported image. In Edit mode, at the top of the Tool well, along the left side of the screen, is a Crop Tool. It allows you to crop the image non-destructively. See page 63 of the User Guide for info on the Crop Tool and page 149 for the Resize feature.
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Thank you very much Brian - much appreciated.
1) Photographers import from cards/drives/etc... thousands and thousands of images ... every day... more than print... make it a sensible button with a finder-like interface please On1. Importing is the start of any photographic workflow. I can't be alone in this. 4-6 Camera bodies firing at a wedding... these thousands of images are not for airdrop so I can insta-twit post. I am at my working computer?
2) I cannot see my star rating or colour in the thumbnail. In the other world... the entire tile/panel behind the thumbnail changes to the selected colour. AND... as soon as you go to the "edit module".. I have no visual representation on the screen to as to IF the selected image has the appointed metadata (colour and rating)... For example, you're doing a shoot of a child for a client and you fire 10-12 shots hammering away on the strobes because those 3 seconds are the only time the child looks at the camera. The differences from one shot to another may be so small that it is just a difference in one eyelid being open a tiny amount... I need to be able to see that the select photo is the one I selected and applied specific selections to that file.
3) Thank you Brian so much for pointing out the difference between crop and resize - I should have caught that... and ergonomically these buttons should be in the same location... and I should be able to relocate / add / remove / change size / of the buttons I use/want.
As soon as I used the crop tool for the first time... Crash... and when I re-opened... the file that I had just spent 20 minutes masking and adjusting... all edits were gone.
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label issue in "filmstrip" has to do with icon size selection... weak GUI...
My largest reason for using Aperture until the very very end and not going the LR route... is because in Aperture you were not FORCED to use the bottom "Filmstrip" that is horrible. It interferes with the Dock, and it is limited to 15-20 images and scrolls horizontally... NO COMPUTER ITEMS SCROLL HORIZONTALLY ... note THIS WEBPAGE... and ALL OTHER THINGS COMPUTING... Aperture allowed you to select a "Browser-esque" window that YOU COULD CHOOSE bottom or screen right/left that permitted you to see 50+ of your other photos all while in an editing view of 1 photo
Again, the ergonomics of workflow... there are many many times when I would want to be able to view shot #6 and shot # 54 of a shoot at the same time... To pick up adjustments made on photo #6 and apply them to photos #54, #57, & #61 all at once...
Please ON1... let the user have control of their screens and layouts - that will make you different than the others. Screen real-estate and ergonomics is the small difference that matters. You are dealing with photographers... the small differences are what we live for.
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1) You have have to copy the files from the SD card to computer storage somehow. It does not matter if you do this in the Finder with a drag and drop from one device to the other or if you use ON1's Import feature. Importing is not a requirement, only a convenience for those who want to add metadata during import rather than after. Images do not have to be imported into the program like they do in Lightroom. Lr's import is to get them into its database. ON1 takes a different philosophy and builds the databases it need from what ever folders you browse. Once they are on the hard drive, or even the SD (there are a couple of folks who do their editing right on the cards and buy new ones for the next shoot. Don't ask me to explain. Different strokes and all that. ;) ) the program can access them via the Browser and you can edit them.
Having to work with thousands of photos from multiple cameras from a single shoot is where the Import dialog shines for me. I can apply a job name to the images and add any common keywords and metadata all in one fell swoop. Those settings are sticky so when an SD card is swapped for a new one the import for that new card will already be set up.
2) Which version of the ON1 software are you running? The stars & color labels do show up for me, right above the images. If they are not showing for you you will need to contact technical support about it. Use the Submit a request link at the bottom of the page and include the information requested in this document: https://on1help.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360018405111-How-to-submit-a-problem-to-ON1-Tech-Support-A-Step-by-step-Guide
No, the program does not display any metadata info while you are editing. You can be sure however that the selected image in the browser is the one that will be opened in the editor. This is easily verified by the name of the image being edited displayed at the top of the screen and above the filmstrip thumbnail. It is also displayed in the Info pane which I didn't show in this screenshot.
I see the labels & ratings in the filmstrip regardless of what size I choose for the thumbnails so I'm still at a loss to explain this for you.
3) I don't know why using the Crop tool would cause the program to crash, you'll have to contact support about that. The loss of your edits is not surprising however. Edits are saved periodically while editing and fully when returning to the Browser. I make it a habit of returning to the Browser every so often while I'm editing the same as I would use the Save command periodically while writing a term paper or any other file I did not want to loose whatever work I had done so far. It sucks loose all that work and I've had it happen to me a couple of times so I feel your pain.
4) I don't like the filmstrip either and I keep it closed during editing until I actually need it for something like adding another image from the same folder to a new layer. Then I can just drag and drop the new image into the editing area and the new Layer is automatically created with it. When I move from one photo to the next I always return to the Browser to insure the saving of my edits. However, I'm not working in the same environment as you, I don't do weddings. My stuff is mostly personal and I don't have deadlines to deal with.
The program has a Dual Mode (under the Window menu) which opens a 2nd browser window to allow you to select a new image for editing without having to return to the Browser. If you have just the one monitor on your system like I do with my laptop you can leave the 2nd window behind the Edit window while you work then press Command-` to bring it forward to select the next image for editing. After making the new selection press Command-` again to bring the Edit window back to the foreground. I've heard this works well with Catalina's new screen sharing feature where you can use a tablet for a 2nd screen.
The program has a Compare view mode (hotkey C) where you can view multiple images at the same time. It also has a Sync facility where you can apply edits made to one image to all the other selected images. When you have multiple images selected one will have a brighter outline than all the others. That is the 'super-selected' image and is the one all the others will be synced to. You have the option of Sync All Settings or you can select which filters (including the ability to sync the masks or not) you want to sync with the Sync Setting… command.
Just an FYI for future reference. I'm not an employee, just another user. While ON1 does monitor these forums they rarely comment here. The company has a web page where users can make suggestions for new features for the program and other users get to vote on them. Once a suggestion has received 200 votes and has a rating of at least 4 (ideas can be voted down too) the company will consider adding it to the program in a future release. https://www.on1.com/products/photo-raw/ideas/
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Brain- thank you very much for your help. So nice of you especially since you are not an employee.
This "support" setup is what made me decide to give it a try over my many many failed attempts to conform to the LR world that I feel is plagued with too many cumbersome clicky-clicks and too many windows etc. Really... not showing metadata when editing a photo ? When I decide if a photo is worth editing... sometimes the shots ISO is the deciding factor on if I should attempt to edit... On first glance (see what I did there...) the world of photography now is the world of layers and filters... I want a program that can do heavy pixel editing when it is needed... but is built to do professional photographic workflow first and foremost. My photo workflow is shared between people... One contained library for all of the photos is a good standardizing practice that does not require policing of file and folder structure. Keeping it simple- what Apple had been known for before all they cared about was phones and fashion pods. Photo management software with functionality to fix and not make #filterfotos - not #latteintaart...
And as a user of a product that you paid for... you probably shouldn't be okay with intentionally slowing yourself down out of crash-fears and clicking back to a browser or comparing photo work to saving a word processing document? Just my $0.02.
Again- thanks for you help. I am going to give it a bit more of a go to see if I can conform.
You seem to be very knowledgable of the product and its programming... will On1 be here in 5 years time or are the developers banking on being bought by bigger pixels so they can retire at the age of 34?
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I doubt the goal of the company is to be bought out. If you are familiar with Genuine Fractals, the old go to for resizing prints in Photoshop, it was created by the founders of ON1. That's just my opinion though. I've been using their software since the Genuine Fractal days and started with their RAW processor in 2016.
You can see the metadata recorded by the camera when the photo was taken in the Info pane and that is available during editing, ISO is definitely there along with Camera, Lens, (original) image size, and exposure info.
With a shared drive and the use of sidecar files (they are optional in Preferences > Files > Sidecar Options and are on by default) the program has the ability to allow multiple computers to edit the same files. The edits are stored in an internal database but also in the sidecars so edits done on computer 1 will be seen and the database updated for computer 2.
I'm glad I was able to help and I'm here if you need any more. :)
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Awesome- and thank you again.
Aperture allowed multiple users to open and edit files in the same library concurrently when I started using it at its inception in 2005. I believe that LR still will not allow that 14 years later...
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I would be leery about concurrent editing with ON1. I don't know if it will allow it or not but with one person making 1 set of edits and another doing different edits and those changes not being recorded in the .on1 sidecar until the editing is finished I'd be concerned about one person's edits being overwritten by the other.
Another question for the actual support guys. :)
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When I was programming software, there was a solution for things like this... It was like a library system, a version control system. You checked out the code and edited it and returned it back into the library when completed. Only the most sophisticated version control packages would allow for multiple users to edit the same piece of code and even then, it almost always required someone "smart" to verify what to allow and what not to change when adding back in.
I cannot imagine allowing for users to edit the same photo at the same time. Perhaps the same library, but different photos, but not the same photo. That is a whole world into itself there.
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Sorry - My miscommunication. Library usage in Aperture is completely different. All files imported into one tidy Library where you never ever have to manage any of your files. IE. Smith Wedding 12.11.2019... Import 2916 RAW files into one Library - yes, ONE file that contains all and everything (just like photos does). One user can open that Library over the network and start editing files from say the last photo in the Library while another person can open that same library at the same time and edit photos from say the start of the library (chronologically). I don't think you can even do that in a LR catalogue to this date. Did I mention you could do it 14 years ago with an Apple product ? :)
And to be very very clear- a very large problem I see with computing today is file management. NO ONE IS CONSISTENT. If I get hit by a bus tomorrow, my three children will see that for our own personal family photos, our lives have been organized in ONE library per year (typically about 75,000 personal shots per year). That ONE file has 12 albums in it ... one per month. TIME WILL NEVER CHANGE. If my 6 year old wants to find a picture that SHE DID NOT SHOOT... she can remember dates roughly and use time to navigate- NOT THE PHOTOGRAPHERS OWN TWISTED NAMING CONVENTIONS AND SIDECAR TAGS (that will for surely be ruined in time). When I am 84 years old, and senile I will remember that in 2009 we went to Europe... can you guess which folder my photos will be in... that right /Photos_2009/August_2009 ... and if my hands don't work, my 4 year old grand baby will be able to look back in time with a logical attack judging hairlines and fashion as prime investigative intuition. Organize file structure of photos by date is my global recommendation to all of those who shoot and are destin to loose precious photos due to bad practices...
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8 hours of honestly trying to learn and not be negative... Figured a tiny sitting with only 5 or 6 photos to touch would be a good start to learning a new platform.
crash... after crash... after crash... after crash....
Mac Pro / 64 GB RAM / 24 TB Of professional photo work attached / Experienced and open to learning pilot...
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... what the?
What is going on here...
I made edits to a photo. Nice simple mask and background lightening (that should really just be a local burning and not need a mask layer)... I exported the image just fine. Now the image is "gone" from the browser and the file doesnt exist- except for the file that is on my desktop with the applied adjustments... below is my On1 window on the left showing the original "red" photo and the adjusted "purple" photo that does no appear to exist... and open in preview on the right is the exported file on the desktop... is the file gone because I exported it???
I import a RAW file (RAW files are the ones you import so you have more editing latitude...) I adjust its items and make edits, then I export it so I can deliver to client... does this application move the edited RAW Master file into a jpg ... and then that's it? I cant come back and alter the adjustments a second or tenth time?
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For your 1st post:
What happens when you close the Filmstrip across the bottom of the window? You can press E to stay in edit mode and return to full screen view of the image without the Filmstrip.
It's possible that something in the program has become corrupted somehow. Quit the program and relaunch it with the Option held down. This will present you with a dialog giving you the option of resetting the program's settings. Do that. If you've made any Preferences changes you'll have to reset them the way you like, they will be returned to the program' defaults.
Are you using Catalogs? Has the cataloging process finished? When catalogs are being created the program will sometimes crash when it runs into a image file it can't work with. It's possible that file has been damaged or is in a format ON1 doesn't support. Go to ~/Library/Application Support/ON1 and take a look at the CorruptFiles.log file. It's in text format so you can read it. If there are any files listed there remove the from there folders and put them somewhere not being cataloged and see if that stops the crashes. There is also a jpeg format testing program that will find and identify all jpegs that are in a non-standard format. That format causes ON1 to crash. Unfortunately I can't remember the name of the program off the top of my head. I do remember that it is free. I'll try to find it.
If non of the above works I recommend completely uninstalling the program then reinstalling it from scratch. This will not cause you to loose any edits if you've kept on the default option to use sidecar files.
Trash the following files to completely uninstall the program:
- /Applications/ON1 Photo RAW 2020
- /Library/Application Support/ON1/xxxx 2020 — There should be 8 files & folders
- /Library/Frameworks/ONxxx.framework — 8 files
- ~/Library/Application Support/ON1/xxxx 2020 — 7 folders plus the PerfectBrowseCache
- ~/Library/Preferences/com.ononesoftware.xxxx2020.plist — 7 plist files
For your 2nd post:
No, edits are not exported and removed from the original RAW file. That would require you to re-edit each photo every time you want to export it again. The edits are saved in an internal database and in the .on1 sidecar file if you have that option on. It is on by default.
When you say, "the file that is on my desktop with the applied adjustments", what kind of file is that? Is that the jpeg you exported?
When you say, "Now the image is 'gone' from the browser and the file doesnt exist", what file do you mean? The exported file, the original RAW file you edited? You need to be more specific in your descriptions of which files you are talking about especially when you ask about multiple files. It's hard to know which file you mean.
Double-check the Export dialog's Location settings to find out where you are exporting your jpgs to.
From the screen shot, what do you mean by, "photo that does no appear to exist"? If the file did not exist the browser could not display it. It must be in the folder you are viewing in the Browser.
Have you downloaded and read the User Guide? It explains all this for you. https://on1help.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/206373527--ON1-User-Guides
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Michael, I see by close inspection of your attached photo 2 posts above that the "purple photo" is a version of the original photo as noted by the v1 in the file name _ DSC6114v1.nef A version is a virtual copy of the original photo that will not be visible in the Windows browser. You should be able to click on it in the On1 browse module and continue editing. All information for the version is stored in the sidecar file of the original photo.
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Thanks David, I missed that from the screen shot. Sorry Michael, had I caught that it would have saved us both a bunch of time. :)
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Brian- I owe you many beer (or whatever it is you drink/eat!)
I believe that the confusion may be my terminology - again, my world used Masters (the untouched RAW files) and Versions (the Master file displaying the sidecar file applying edits)'
Let me try this again. I feel I am doing something wrong that should be so logical. I have quickly read the users manual and viewed most/many of the videos... but they are not any help in actually using the product in a workflow situation.
Follow my (and ALL) photgraphers steps.
1) Shoot RAW photos.
2) Import into December_2019/Client_X folder
3) Select images I like and star them 2 or 3 stars
4) Want to display just the 2s and 3s
5) Select a 2 star file and start to edit. This is where I am off...
I select the NEF raw file and don't really want to touch it... I am new to this... still a rookie... on our first date... do not touch my RAW files. Ever. So I create a version. It allows me too in the right-click menu. I add a mask and do a few adjustments ... fix some zits, apply some curvish type adjustments and then crop to 5X7.
6) I want to export a small .jpg of that edited version to the desktop... just to send to the client quickly within an hour after the shoot as a teaser... I want to be leaving the edited file in the same location as the RAW file so I can come back later and maybe adjust the crop... or create another version of this edited file because the client asked to see it in black and white.
- Leave the RAW file where I imported it. Build edited versions in the same location as the RAW file. Allow me to export small jpg copies of the edited versions I make. Allow me to come back in and tweak the edits and export different copies as I see fit.
Can On1 do this ?
I am not able to get it to do it...
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Hi David - thank you for helping me learn!
"A version is a virtual copy of the original photo that will not be visible in the Windows browser"
ummmm... help here please... because I need a version of me that my wife cant see?
I make edits to a photo... I want to show the client a "colour version" and a "black and white version"... client also wants same photo cropped to a "landscape version"... how do I tell them the can only have one of those visible ?....
Again, this is the type of stuff that should be intuitive to a non-novice like me? I don't mean to sound smart- 8 hours trying to learn something I've spent 20+ years doing is troubling.
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Michael, you should be able to do exactly what you are describing I use versions all the time. Are you saying you cannot click on the version _ DSC6114v1.nef thumbnail in the filmstrip and go into edit?
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To clarify when I say a virtual copy all data for a version or versions is held in the sidecar of the original image and versions only exist in the On1 workspace. I am not sure if there is a limit to the number of versions but you can have several versions of the original photo edited as you describe one B&W one color one with various filters applied etc. Just be careful with versions because if you delete the original image ALL versions will be deleted as well. You can delete versions and not affect the original file or other versions.
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One other comment -- not sure exactly what you mean when you say "client also wants same photo cropped to a "landscape version"... how do I tell them the can only have one of those visible ?.... "
How do you want to make the image visible? Each version in visible in the on1 browser. Each version can be exported to JPG and then the JPG is visible in the photo viewer of choice.
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With ON1 it isn't necessary to create the versions just to edit an image. ON1 is completely non-destructive with its edits. All edits are stored in an internal database and in the .on1 sidecar file. Those edits are rendered to the screen to show you what the edited image looks like. This is why it takes some time for an image to appear in the Editor, everything has to be rendered again.
If you copy the RAW file to a different folder using the Finder, not doing it in ON1, then browse to that folder you will see the image file untouched. Browse back to the other folder and there are your edits. Back in the Finder, copy the .on1 sidecar to the new folder. Back in ON1 browsing that folder will now show the edits. When you copy a file in ON1 it will copy the sidecar along with the image file.
Because ON1 is non-destructive, for me the creation of a version to hold the edits is an unnecessary complication. The program puts an edited flag in the lower right corner of the images that have been edited so it is easy to tell what has been edited and what has not. I also set a red flag when when I've finished with a photo. Tells me to Stop Editing! :)
I use versions when I want to try a different direction with my edits but don't want to loose what I've already done, or when I'm not sure what I'm going to do next will work. I see them more as a temporary backup. Another use is for holding different crops for different printing dimensions as you've described or B/W versions to go alongside the color versions, etc.
I also use the Import feature's ability to create a backup during import so I have a copy on my NAS of all the original untouched, unedited, as imported versions of all my RAW files. That's in addition to my daily backup of the Pictures folder with all the edits. If something happens and I loose a RAW somehow and that loss goes unnoticed and gets backed up as well, I still have the original the most I've lost is the edits.
YMMV, if you don't want to change the workflow you're accustomed to (who does?) go ahead and continue creating the versions to edit. You're just going to have to remember to look for the v1 virtual files in the browser.
Yes, ON1 can do all you want but it is a different workflow than I'd use with other programs.
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- sorta kinda... sorted one issue is that the default file organization for the filmstrip in the browse mode... was "date modified"... not by the filename? (oh - and that drop down is in a horrible location IMHO... what if I want to browse only my "greens" in that location... but anyway)
I have edited a "version" of a RAW photo... it turns into a .onphoto that I cant make another version of ???
I shoot a bride... fix all her blemishes and want to show her two versions - 1 colour and 1 B/W? I MUST BE MISSING SOMETHING
I fixed the background with an unneeded mask ... it should have been burnable with a burn tool and boundary detection just like the big boogers I retouched from his out of his nose (if you can retouch very detailed patterns without a mask... you can lighten backgrounds without a mask)... now how do I make a second version of this edited photo with a tighter crop and in black and white??
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long winded short... how do I take a photo that I retouched. Make a copy of that same photo right next to it in B/W so I can compare the two colour vs B/W... that simple. Two thumbnails. Right beside each other. One with a filter applied ... one without...
... and then how do I take that nice B/W filter adjustment and apply it to 12 other photos in that folder that were shot under the exact same lighting conditions and have them give me 2 copies... or versions if you would one in colour ... and one in B/W ... with one click.
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The Filmstrip displays the images in the same order as the thumbnail view. That pop-up menu sets the order for both views.
If you want to view only the greens, or just the 2 stars, or just the red 3 stars, use the Filters Pane. Page 32 in the User Guide.
.onphoto files are created when you have multiple Layers in an image and no, they do not allow for versions. I don't know if it is a bug or there is some design limitation that prevents their use. I've reported it. With them unfortunately, you have to duplicate the file to have different versions.
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Michael you are kind of chasing a couple of issues. As I described you can do all you initially described with versions of the original photo. Once you have gone into layers and have a .onphoto file then want various versions you could edit it for a version then export then re-edit the .onphoto and export etc.. or export the .onphoto as a tif to maintain data then create versions of the tif
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... and how do I duplicate a file... and if you say in the finder... this product should be refunded.
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What do you mean duplicate a file?
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yes david - I am chasing a few issues. All of these are common to photographic workflow. Shoot a grad photo. Edit the grad photo. Show the client the same photo edits in various representations that play to their aesthetic style and choice... that is the heart of what photographers do.
"Could I have that print in 8X10 in colour for my office and in black and white and 11X20 for my parents for Christmas... And in Aunty's album could you print it in 5X7?"
yes is always the answer
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To duplicate a file right-click on it and choose the Duplicate command. Or use the Edit > Duplicate command.
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long winded short… Because you are using Layered .onphoto files you have to create duplicates which becomes very expensive in storage costs.
I'm wondering if your experience with other software has you doing unnecessary things with your edits in ON1. Is it necessary to create different Layers? I only do that when I want to do something like work on the sky separately from the ground. I could do that without layers but for every sky/ground effect I'd have to duplicate the same mask over and over. Using a Layer I can have just one mask for the sky and all sky filters are applied to that layer. Kind of like layer groups in Ps.
For most images though multiple Layers are not needed. Each Effect and Local Adjustment is handled internally as its own layer. (Note no capitalization to differentiate from a Layer you've created.)
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