Whats Next for PR?
Topic for Discussion: The future of On1-PR
I see that On1 has released its much advertised 360 product. Some valuable features (for some) and a new revenue stream for On1. Not the right product for me -- I'd rather have a non-subscription "bug-free" high-performance basic 2020.1 editor.
The path to PR2020 has been a long and frustrating one. I was delighted to see in 2020.1 a nearly acceptable product -- now a part of my standard work-flow. Several bugs remaining, but still a useable 2020.1 product with good performance.
Now in the 2020.5 release things look like they've taken a step backwards -- many new bugs and broken features that were once working in 2020.1. Seems that the On1 path going forward will be to fix 360-related features in 2020.5 rather than the basic 2020.1 bugs remaining to be resolved. Fixing these 2020.1 bugs in the future will probably mean upgrading to a 360-centric PR.
Hope that I'm wrong, but it's easy to see how things could revert back to the PR "beta" releases of 2019 and prior, and the many requests for "no new features -- just fix the bugs".
Wondering what others think on this matter?
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I'm with you 100%. No new features -- just fix the bugs.
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I'm also with you 100%. Longtime user as a plugin to Adobe. I'm completely turned off by the incredibly poor release of 360... Truly a ripoff given how bad it is working and some of the most basic features missing... Seriously, no exif data or basic organizing? Useless on top of syncing issues, inability to handle compressed raws, black previews, no syncing detail, the camera function won't work on Samsung devices, Android clearly wasn't tested, and when the app crashes on my phone I end up with duplicate entries in 360 for the device and then lose all my cloud data due that device to clear up the issue... And support has told me they unfortunately don't have a timeline yet for the fixes... and I could go on.
I was so built up by their marketing, I was ready to cutover from Adobe. My biggest concern was importing from Lightroom and keywording which I think are passable but seem like organizing to on1 is more an afterthought. However, now I'm just about sold on staying with Adobe now as I'm unwilling to play beta tester for a cost over the next few years while they never catch up with even the basics of Adobe.
I'm on vacation this week working with both on1 and lightroom mobile... Just no comparison...many light years apart, which saddens me honestly as I'm really wanting this to work but feeling the on1 team just don't get it maybe?0 -
I'm also with you 100%. Longtime user as a plugin to Adobe. I'm completely turned off by the incredibly poor release of 360... Truly a ripoff given how bad it is working and some of the most basic features missing... Seriously, no exif data or basic organizing? Useless on top of syncing issues, inability to handle compressed raws, black previews, no syncing detail, the camera function won't work on Samsung devices, Android clearly wasn't tested, and when the app crashes on my phone I end up with duplicate entries in 360 for the device and then lose all my cloud data due that device to clear up the issue... And support has told me they unfortunately don't have a timeline yet for the fixes... and I could go on.
I was so built up by their marketing, I was ready to cutover from Adobe. My biggest concern was importing from Lightroom and keywording which I think are passable but seem like organizing to on1 is more an afterthought. However, now I'm just about sold on staying with Adobe now as I'm unwilling to play beta tester for a cost over the next few years while they never catch up with even the basics of Adobe.
I'm on vacation this week working with both on1 and lightroom mobile... Just no comparison...many light years apart, which saddens me honestly as I'm really wanting this to work but feeling the on1 team just don't get it maybe?0 -
I came to this forum because of this concern. I haven't downloaded the new release out of concern for a bugs and see my caution was justified. I really don't need a 360 product and I'm hoping that the basic PR will continue to be upgraded with features basic to editing and processing. I'm worried. I love the photo raw editing part but they seem to ignore some really basic aspects such as cataloguing and keyword searching for which there are many complaints. I've stopped using those parts of the program altogether. I hope PR does maintain the basic system and allows users the choice to not use the 360 model, and goes back to fix some of the very basic parts of the organizing system.
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Well stated and I agree wholeheartedly. The main core of editing photos is ... well, it is editing photos. When twiddly bits are added to provide that extra bit of functionality that is fine. When twiddly bits are added that destroy the core functions, or the core function is malfunctioning at the expense of the fiddly bits, then that is not fine. And when the malfunctions are completely ignored in favour of the twiddly bits then that is just taking the p*ss.
I've begun trialling other photo editors, some of them are pretty good and provide most of the core functions I want. Very soon they will provide all the functions I want and ON1 will become unnecessary and ON1 can stick its fiddly bits where the sun does not shine. Sorry, but I just want to edit photographs.
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While I agree on the evaluation of 2020.5 vs 2020.1, let's be fair to the ON1 team. The inclusion of 360 is a huge change and they had it in works for a long time. This means that they started with, most likely, 2019.x and worked 360 into it in parallel with the constant development of 2020.x. Unfortunately, they cornered themselves by promising the release of 360 mobile by June 2020. The app was not (still not) ready, but they pushed it out on June 30th, to keep up with the promise. This also made them push unfinished 2020.5, hence all the bugs you see. Basically,m this whole story is like a rough landing of unbalanced 747 on a short runway. Anyway, the team mentioned numerous improvements coming by early fall, so I am quite certain they will fix most of the bugs. There are many things to like in ON1 over Adobe/LR/PS or any other raw-handling app.
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I hear you Kim, however they are happily taking our money, not honestly communicating the shortcomings and frankly the 360 product is worthless for someone like me who wants to use it in the field or on vacation, etc. Had I known it didn't include exif data or even basic organizational capabilities by date, I wouldn't have bought in. As it stands, they overhyped a product that is less than beta.
Had they stated something to the effect you mentioned, released anyway with some fine print, extended memberships. .. Effectively starting when bugs are really fixed, then I would have some sympathy and maybe would have joined then. Right now, though, I'm just about sold on staying with Adobe, given how badly they've broken trust and frankly, in my testing, I keep losing my cloud stored pics...which is the biggest deal breaker of them all. Once I make that decision, on1 goes back to plugin for me... Nothing more... And maybe less.
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Hi
I haven't bought 360 because I really don't think that they had me in mind, when they designed it. I don't do my editing on multiple computers. Now I do keep my raw files in more than one place, and 360 could have been designed to help with that. May be at some time in the future?
I dabbled with catalogues, and I was well impressed by ON1's search facilities. I could see the benefits of using them.. But, fundamentally, the constant cataloguing, then recataloguing, ad infinitum, eventually became unacceptable, and now I just use Photo Raw to edit images. Which it does really well. (I intend to be shelling out for PR 2021 or what ever it is called when it launches).
It is interesting, as it was Lightroom 5's shoddy implementation of catelogues, that broke my love affair with lightroom. i.e. if Lightroom had not had catalogues, I probably would have stayed with it. And, now I use a different photo editor, and don't bother to use it's catalogue facilities.
So far, I have only encountered a single bug in PR 2020.5, and as the cure was to delete the settings file, I suspect that it was probably caused by bad code from an earlier version of PR.
I would like to see PR further developed. But, the eternal dilema for ON1 is they also have to have something new with a wow factor, to attract new users. We will wait and see, with baited breath. But, so far, I each new version has been better and more stable than the one that came before it. So I am hopeful.
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I just noticed this post immediately after posting my own account of the aggravating bug issues I've experienced with 2020.1 & 2020.5 so far. It's very much not a good look for On1. I finally bought in after trying the demos of a couple of the previous versions which I did not continue with because I found them to be too problematic with bugs.
The expanded features and capabilities hooked me this time so I bought in thinking that the stability of the app must have surely greatly improved along with the feature set. Now I can only feel that I should've known better as I go back to the basics and restrictions of using DXO until this 2020.5 mess is fixed.
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I am relatively new to photography but have gone all in to learn especially post processing. Left Luminar because of bugs and unfulfilled promises. ON1 seemed like Nirvana with integrated DAM, search, keywords, albums, HDR, Focus stacking, upsizing and of course the crown jewel the Develop module.
Next to Develop, Browse was a critical feature for my needs. But the endless bugs and massive lost edits have sent me, while waiting for all to be well with 20.5, to learn Photoshop and Bridge as a backup. I now have a decent beginners skill with Photoshop. It gets the job done for me but has led me to appreciate the near genius of the tools and user interface of Develop. I want to stay.
But 20.5 has not fixed, much less acknowledged, the well discussed and long standing Browse bugs that make it unsafe to use. Especially with external drives. I recently sent support a 6 hour upload of requested files. Not for the first time. They will look at it.
None of us expects a bug free product but the core components have to work reliably without lost edits, keywords, albums, display.
I think a decision has been made to go the Adobe path, subscription and mobile and they don’t have the resources/revenue to stabilize their core software. In part because of the collapse of the mid to high end camera market. Too bad, as ON1 is conceptually the near perfect product.2 -
Jerry, just read your post as did my wife.. Brilliantly written.
I've been in the industry almost two decades and been a photographer about 40 years. Perfectly said from both ends of the spectrum.
I'm truly sad about the state of things and have invested a huge amount of time getting ready to cut over to On1. Maybe time will fix things, though really not sure.
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I have used On1 products for 10+ years as a PS plug-in and generally been very pleased. With each version of PR I seemed to be the one to find the bugs. I don't think I push the program terribly hard but the frequency and severity of bugs is something that was prevalent 20 years ago in software, not now.
I appreciate the strains that support is under but am truly stumped how so much of this got through beta testing. I really feel like an unpaid beta tester with each new release. Now, I see the emphasis on flashy additions that negatively impact the core functionality of the program. How the heck could the crop tool get broken?
With 2020.5 I had a "bad" jpg that caused the catalog feature to fail and dump me out of the program. I spent easily 10-20 hours over the course of several weeks trying to identify the issue. Support claimed that both my machines had bad Windows installs even though the laptop was 6 months old with very little on it. I dutifully reinstalled Windows on the laptop and updated all drivers. The first program installed was Photo Raw and it crashed while browsing one particular folder. I zipped up the folder of 95 jpgs (all created by PR) and sent it to support where the folder promptly crashed their Win and Mac machines. Shouldn't the program have the ability to trap a crash like that? I helped test that sort of issue in 1992 with Clipper 87.
I too had a Plus membership but it expired recently and I decided I had wasted enough time with the bugs in core functions that I purchased a competitive product from Denmark and I could not be happier. I really wanted to use On1 as my go-to editor but the frustration became too much and I am told I am pretty patient.
I am sorry it didn't work out.
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Nitin, Agreed, there is still lots to fix in the main program.
Project Raw is not dead. There have been a few ideas there that have been implemented.
You are interacting with On1 users here. The Facebook group is for Photography. If you want to learn/share photography or discuss how to do something, that's where you go. If something isn't working and you need help, that's what this forum is for if you want to discuss it, or just contact support.
I don't see any problem with crop in 2020.5.1, it works properly (now) for me. To get out of it, just click something else.
You can dislike layers if you like, but where would you expect those layers to be if there was no file to put them in?
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Nitin,
Very thorough and interesting video. Thanks. Tough but fair. A good checklist for the engineers to consider as they refine ON1..
Just downloaded 20.5.1. Compliments for the fast response. See that the Crop bug not remembering the last crop has been fixed. Reference to other but not specified bug fixes in release notes.
Browse issues remain for me: eg. random portrait images displayed in horizontal. Still will not recognize previously disconnected edits on external SSD with as far as I can see fully populated .on1 files still present. Or .onphoto files for multilayer edits. I am reconciled that these are lost forever. Don't have heart to reedit them in ON1 and risk losing them again unless I edit them on my internal drive which seems to be safe.
I will continue learning and editing with Bridge, Adobe Camera Raw (recently major update) and PS while I hope for ON1 fixes, refinements and assurances.
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Hi Rick
It is a depressing fact of life, that the old slogan, "Out with the old bugs, and in with the new bugs", still applies almost whenever new software is launched.
So Ten out of Ten to ON1, for launching a new version, and reacting to User's Concerns as quickly as they have done.
Best Wishes David Price
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But David, testing should have revealed these bugs before the embarrassment of releasing a version with a flaky crop tool. Did no testers try to crop an image? That is what astounds me.
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William, I'm a tester and yes, I did crop images and I had no problems with the tool until the update was actually released.
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Brian, that has got to be highly concerning that what you tested was different from the shipping product.
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That happens all the time. A beta is released near the end of the development cycle, bugs are reported, and fixes are made for the final release. Unfortunately, in this case, one of those fixes introduced a new bug.
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I can't help but think that one more iteration of testing on the release candidate would have caught the issue and been far less frustrating for users. Personally, I would have rather waited another week and had a less buggy program.
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Nitin, Re your comment that you are not concerned with lost edits- I too backup nightly, and my backups quickly mirrored the disconnected edits before I woke up to what was happening. It was not a crash which would obviously trigger a restore, but a progressive thing. Kind of like Corona, tested and shut down late. Even a hobbyist who has put days into editing a portfolio of keepers for printing would go Ahhh S*** and be wary of starting over. Made worse by the fact that seemingly all the edit information is still present in the sidecar and .onphoto files, it just isn't recognized by Develop. I am putting my trust for now in .psd and Camera Raw and PS. Jerry
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I am puzzled by all of the comments about 'lost edits' and 'Browse Bugs', as, (so far at least), I have not seen any of these bugs.
I am also a fan of the various types of ON1 files. As they are quicker to write and take up much less space than do PSDs. I have not had any problems with edits in sidecars separating from raw files.
I have expereinced the Browse failing to properly orientate portrait images, but only with files produced by one of my cameras. So, I suspect that particular bug is camera specific, and most likely a problem with the EXIF data recorded by the camera, and not an issue in Browse at all.
PR 2020.1 had a bug in the HDR module, which thankfully now is fixed. The HDR bug insisted that a PSD had to be created, whenever I made a HDR. They took so long to create, that I got into the habit of heading off for another cup of tea, when ever I clicked save. Sometimes the HDR managed to save before I returned to the keyboard. Mostly they didn't.. I am still using File Explorer to hunt down and to delete those wretched and unwanted PSDs.
Actually, even though I have not bought 360, I do think that it is an important step forward. Because the enthusiast camera market is currently in freefall, with a number of camera makers potentially in great danger. Also, the TV and social media is filled with advertisements that suggest that the latest smartphones completely outclass todays full frame cameras. This is clearly advertising nonsense, but it is working. Smartphones have killed off compact cameras, and the enthusiast camera market is now going the same way. All of the image editing companies now need to attract the users of smartphones. We may not like this, but that is the way that tech world has gone.
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Hi David,
Your response was thoughtful and I agree. Thanks for the take on EXIF data. Just yesterday I noticed that something similar happened to me in Lightroom.
I am glad you have not experienced lost/disconnected edits and that you did not mean to dismiss others experiences. I suspect/hope that lost edits are not experienced by many users. Bugs are not experienced by all users, just as I did not experience your HDR bug, nor Brian the Crop bug at first.
However at least several of us over the last many weeks are more than "puzzled" by our lost/disconnected edits as you will see by the lengthy posts and conversations with forum leaders trying to find explanations and work arounds. ON1 support seems to acknowledge the problem while showing frustration that they cannot reproduce it. While the manual clearly states that Browse offers a full suite of Finder/Explorer like functionality I have been cautioned by support about how I use Browse in drag and drop or copy/move to SSD folders in order to avoid the issues. We have been advised to try reinstalls or moving files back and forth between SSD and Internal Drives to see if edits can be brought back to life.
It is a real problem. We don't know if it is on the bug list, fixed, or lurking for others to experience.
If lost edits were to happen to you and you had put a lot of constructive effort in to help pin down the problem, I suspect you would be very cautious about committing your work to ON1 DAM.
I only pursue this issue because I believe in the potential and design concept of ON1. As I have said I accept the loss of my many edits and have moved on.
Best, Jerry
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Hi Jerry
I was not trying to dismiss other people's experiences, I was merely saying that my copy of PR 2020 seems to be behaving much better, than other people's. When you think about this, it should not be too surprising, as each copy of PR is running on a different machine, with an assorted cocktail of other programmes, which may or might not interfere in sometimes difficult to predict ways. This should be less of an issue with Apple's closed ecosystem, but is definitely a possible issue with Windows more open system.
Actually, I know exactly how it feels to lose two months’ worth of work, because it happened to me in January 2020. Something wiped all of my January Photos and did a good hatchet job on my December photos. It tore up some of my backups too, whilst I was backing up. I had to buy a hard drive recovery programme, which did manage to recover about 70% of my missing images.
When my friendly IT Guy took my machine apart, he initially could not find the cause. Then as he was running another deep scan, a pop up appeared and claimed that it was helping me to keep my SSD free, by deleting anything that was already stored in on the cloud from my PC. It also claimed to be part of Windows 10, but it clearly wasn't. There was a timer running down, and failure to click on the cancel button would give the pop up permission to delete yet more of my images. This pop up would be hidden behind any open screens, such as Word, and/or PR. Of course, none of my lost images had been stored on the Cloud.
The rogue PUP was tracked down and isolated. It appeared to have nothing to do with Micro Soft or even with ON1. It seemed to be someone's idea of a joke, which had, (judging from the dates), downloaded it's self behind the cover of some useful open source software.
I was lucky, although I lost some images. Scanning with both Malwarebytes and Norton found another PUP, which was also deleted.
If you have lost a lot of work and have reason to believe that it was caused by PR, then I can understand your caution. I can confirm that finding your hard drive empty is an awful feeling.
You raise an interesting issue. I tend to use Windows File Manager when I am creating and/or altering my file structures. I also don't use the Import facilities. Instead I cut and paste my images from the camera and into the folders with File Manager. After wards all of the editing and moving of images is done in Photo Raw, so that the side cars stay with their raw files, etc. I wonder if it might be the way that I am using Photo Raw and Windows that could also account for my different experience? i.e., Possibly, I have been unknowingly avoiding treading on/triggering the landmines?
Like you I really like Photo Raw. I bought in to the original concept before they launched the first version, all those years ago. It was at the time, quite poor, but now it is a joy to use. It is quick, flexible, and pretty stable. Although, I will admit that some of the bugs, and there are a few, can be very annoying.
Sorry to hear of your bad time, and good luck in the future.
David Price
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Thanks David, and my apologies for being a bit prickly. You have been there and back. So glad ON1 has settled in for you. A few minor flaws maybe give it a bit of character and something for us to talk about and hopefully lead things forward.
We all hope for the best with ON1. Grumbling, kicking and screaming I am settling in on Bridge, Photo Raw and Photoshop. One good thing in re-editing my pictures is that I am doing better edits and learning a lot that will apply to ON1 as well. I will use ON1 somewhat as a plug in for final local adjustment edits on some photos and to avoid some of PS complexities. Also on my rare HDR and Focus stacking and maybe Panorama. And resizing when I want to cover the wall with my favorite sunset. When the time comes may well return to ON1 full force. But as I spend time with Bridge and the new Photo Raw they seem to be pretty nice pieces of software for now.
I look forward to having software not be my focus so much and getting back to growing my skills and eye in capturing and printing images.
Jerry
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Nitin, I watched your video. Excellent review of the bugs as well as the many strengths of On1. One very important question for me is you mentioned 'cataloging' the same folders you are using for Lightroom and 'keeping things in sync'. What did you mean exactly and how does that work?
From what I gather, I need to use the Lightroom migration tool to get my lightroom information across to On1. Once there, I expect that my edits in Lightroom stay there and if I work in On1, edits would stay in On1 also separately?
If I can make similar work for me, I might still move toward On1.
Thanks!
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Jerry Hall,
Very interesting and frustrating that after a complete deep probing uninstall and clean reinstall of v.2020.5, I am now experiencing the exact same set of issues as you as referenced in your post above:
{"Browse issues remain for me: eg. random portrait images displayed in horizontal. Still will not recognize previously disconnected edits on external SSD with as far as I can see fully populated .on1 files still present. Or .onphoto files for multilayer edits".}
The .onphoto files created from my edits of the original RAW files are present, but when I open them for edit manipulation only the layers are present with all parameters set to neutral default position. Also some appear in browse with a 'blocky' pixelation. Wow, I really hope they get on this and get it rectified like yesterday. More than any glitchy feature bug, actually not retaining edit information within the edited file container is a literal failure of the program in the worst way. Trying to be optimistic as I understand there will be bugs, but how can I confidently work in this program unsure of whether the work will be saved for recall?
I really dislike Adobe for the convoluted nature of their apps' workflow as well as the subscription model. But it's starting to look like that's where I'll have to go for stability's sake until this .onphoto file failure bug is officially repaired.
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Sean,
Sorry for your troubles. But thanks for providing some further evidence of the problem. Adobe workflow is a head scratcher for sure. Also the dense menus and shortcuts. When I found out the only way to create a stamped layer was with what is lovingly referred to as the "Claw" (Shift+Opt+Cmd+E) I just about sold my camera.
We need better communication from ON1, but it seems a long time coming.
Jerry
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Just been looking back at some of my older images and guess what? ON1 edits are missing although sidecar files are present. The older they are the more of these I find. I feel sick to my boots.
For more than two years after leaving Adobe I've been battling with ON1's flakey interface and its cavalier attitude toward its bug-ridden programming. It's so sad because when and if it works correctly then it is more than a match for Adobe, but over and over again it fails to be consistent except when a new 'feature' is released when you know the core editing will consistently go to hell in a handcart. Again. And again. And again.
This program is fundamentally flawed and desperately papering over the cracks is not the way to win back confidence. Due to lockdown I've accrued a bit of cash and I am currently trialling Phase One and other photo software, it's like a breath of fresh air. Expensive, but if they're stable then I guess that is the price you have to pay for quality. My trials end at the end of the month and that is when I'll make a final decision.
I've had enough, to be honest.
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Thank you for the clarification Nitin. I'm in the same situation as you with Adobe and On1. Your approach sounds excellent.
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