Very slow performance
On1 is really letting me down right now. Especially since the update. It now takes 4 seconds to fully load each image to check sharpness. This is happening even when I go back to an image that previously loaded. The way it’s promoted is the image will load instantly once it’s been clicked on once. When culling through images to eliminate duplicates and pick the sharper images On1 is painstakingly slow. Then exporting is even worse! It took 4 minutes and 3 secs to export 9 jpgs. Then it took 13 minutes and 12 seconds to export 31 images. With my workflow being that slow I had to do something else. I downloaded a 7 day trial of LR. It exported those same 9 images in 40 seconds and the 31 images in 2 minutes and 32 seconds! The tools in On1 are superior and editing photos more powerful in On1 and it’s why I switched several months back. But I simply can’t continue if this performance isn’t fixed. Can someone please provide some guidance? I’ve tried to adjust all the new gpu settings. Nothing helped.
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The first thing you want to do is double check the video driver. If it's not right it will impact your speed...
If you have any catalogs building or photos being published to 360, they both use a lot of CPU, so you'll need to wait for those to finish.
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The program really needs an SSD dedicated to its Scratch space. Do you have your images on your internal hard drive? In that case the OS, the program, the program's scratch space, and the image are all on the same drive and all I/O necessary for those 4 things gets jammed up. Think of a 4 lane road being narrowed down to a single lane one way at a time bridge.
I recommend adding an SSD with its own I/O connection. You don't want to daisy chain it to another drive or connect it to a hub that will also be shared with other drives. In ON1's Preference > Settings tab there are buttons for moving the Scratch space and the program's PerfectBrowseCache. Move both of them to the SSD.
Which video card do you have and how much VRAM does it have? The program is very GPU intensive and the better the GPU the better the program will perform.
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Okay Brian. Here’s what I’m working with. I have a 240GB ssd as my main HD at it has 75gb free. So it’s not full. I have a Radeon Rx560 GPU. It has 4gb of ram. The drive where all my photos are is a standard 2TB 7200 rpm drive. My scratch and browse cache folders are both on my SSD. The differences I notice from your screenshot and my settings are
1) Your browse cache is 10k mine was/is at 5k
2) My video card strength is at about 50%. Yours is all the way up.
Is On1 making the video card strength determination? Should I move my cache to 10k?
additional system specs. i7 870 processor 2.93 and 16GB of RAM
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Oh I also forgot to mention my cpu seems to rev up like a jet engine each time On1 takes those 4 seconds to load the image.
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Robert,
I had similar problems to you which only started after the latest version update. Up until that time, and after the earlier update to version 8943, PR had been running very well. I contacted the support team who provided me with an installer to return to version 8943 (aka 2020.1, I think). This immediately fixed the performance issues. I have now decided to apply no further updates unless I really have to.
If you are not a 360 user, this could be an option for you. You can use this link to get at the installer, or if you are uncomfortable using this file, ask Support for the same.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1puV_1EeDZkD4-49fE-8ibhuZ5c3uj69R/view?usp=sharing
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Robert, I usually keep my Video Card Strength slider all the way up so the program can make the most use of the GPU. When it starts struggling with masking then I will lower it until I get acceptable response from my tablet again. I can't remember the last time I had to adjust that though. For me the program's performance has gotten better with each release but then I'm on a Mac.
The Browse Cache slider is a bit misleading. It does not control the size of the PerfectBrowseCache as it might imply. It controls how much RAM the program is allowed to use to hold the previews loaded from the PBC.
Do you have the PBC and Scratch space on your internal SSD? That is what you want to avoid. They should be on their own fast SSD with its own connection to the motherboard. Don't connect it inline with another drive or they will still be sharing the same I/O channel.
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Robert, I see exactly the same behavior and it is obvious that ON1 PhotoRaw needs some performance fixes.
I absolutely disagree with Brian. Users should not have special requirement like dedicated SSD drive for the image editing program, That is nonsense. The Lightroom, Phototshop, ACDSee Studio are flying on my computer so I know it is issue with the ON1 PhototRaw. Love the program but the slowness is extremely frustrating.0 -
A dedicated drive as I've described is not required but it is recommended. You don't have to purchase a top of the line system to run the program either, you can buy a system that meets the minimum requirements but you certainly wouldn't expect the same performance from that machine that you would from a high end system.
My Scratch drive started its life for Photoshop's scratch space. It was recommended 15 years ago and it remains a good recommendation today. Saying, "But I don't have to do this for my other programs" is a false analogy. In the first place those other programs will also see a performance boost from a dedicated scratch drive. Secondly, ON1 does not work like other programs. It is far more GPU intensive than those other programs and it does things differently than them.
I was asked how to improve the program's performance and I gave a recommendation based on experience both as a user and a software developer. It is up to each user to decide whether to take that advice or not. Dismissing it out of hand is unwarranted.
Tihomir, if you want to see better performance try my suggestion.
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Hi Brian,
I am considering trying your suggestion of a dedicated drive to see if this resolves my performance issues that have resulted in rolling back to an older version of PR.
I am IT literate from a non-technical point of view, but when people talk about motherboards and scratch drives, I am out of my comfort zone! Could you therefore please clarify a few things:
1. Are the files to be stored externally those that, on Windows, sit in the ON1 directory in C --- Users --- user name --- Appdata --- Roaming --- ON1? I am referrring to the directory that contains the Perfect Browser Cache.
2. If the above is correct, should all of the files in the ON1 directory be stored externally, or just the Cache folder contents?
3. If not already answered, what do you mean by "scratch space"?
4. Regarding the storage medium, I have what I would refer to as an 80GB external hard drive which connects via USB. Is this the type of hardware you are recommending?
5. I also save sidecar files. Does this mean that if the hard drive went bang, I would not lose all of the photo edits?
Many thanks.
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Sorry Brian, I forgot one more question.
Am I correct in assuming that the original photo files and the sidecars remain stored on the PC SSD, and not on the external hard drive?
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1. Are the files to be stored externally those that, on Windows, sit in the ON1 directory in C --- Users --- user name --- Appdata --- Roaming --- ON1? I am referrring to the directory that contains the Perfect Browser Cache.
Yes, that is the directory that would be moved if you make that change in the program's preferences.
2. If the above is correct, should all of the files in the ON1 directory be stored externally, or just the Cache folder contents?
That is possible but it requires some configuration in Windows first then reinstalling the program under that configuration. I'm not enough of a Windows user to have done it myself but Rick has. He's the Windows guru.
3. If not already answered, what do you mean by "scratch space"?
Think of the scratch paper you used when taking math quizzes. It's the temporary working space the program uses while you are doing your editing. It's why you loose your edits when the program crashes and why you see the Saving… progress dialog when you return to the browser. It is where the program holds your work as you move around from filter to filter creating masks, etc. Because it is so I/O intensive you want it to have its own I/O channel so it won't have to wait for some other I/O request by the OS, or the program, or some other background process, to finish before the program can continue with your work.
4. Regarding the storage medium, I have what I would refer to as an 80GB external hard drive which connects via USB. Is this the type of hardware you are recommending?
If it has spinning disks, no it isn't fast enough for the scratch space. You want as fast an SSD as you can afford. I got a good deal on a 120GB SanDisk for mine.
5. I also save sidecar files. Does this mean that if the hard drive went bang, I would not lose all of the photo edits?
If your photos are on their own drive then you've got physical separation between the program's internal databases and the .on1 sidecar files which provides a more secure backup system IMO. Loosing one drive or the other does not loose all the edits from both locations at the same time. Of course you are making backups of all your drives every night, right? ;) I don't back up the Scratch drive as the PBC can be rebuilt if necessary.
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Am I correct in assuming that the original photo files and the sidecars remain stored on the PC SSD, and not on the external hard drive?
Yes, moving the Scratch space and the PBC will not touch your photos or their sidecars. I have mine on their own external SSD as well. My boot drive isn't big enough to hold my photos by them selves. :)
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Thanks again Brian.
I think I have all I need to give it a go tomorrow.
My external hard drive has no spinning disks so is worth giving a try. And yes, my photo files and sidecars are already backed up in Google Drive!
Only reply if I have got this wrong. From what you say, I will use the two "move" functions in the PR system preferences. If I do this, that will re-locate all that is necessary. I assume that I do not need to cut and paste any other of the ON1 folders to get the performance improvement.
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That is correct.
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I find it interesting that Tihomir's Photoshop/Lightroom apps are flying on his computer but ON1 is slow. I'm finding just the opposite. I have no issues with ON1s speed on my PC, but Photoshop, Lightroom, and particularly ACR are painfully slow -- to the point that I don't even want to use ACR (which I normally don't, but....).
My computer is a fast i7 processor, 32gb memory, dedicated GPU with 6 gb memory, and plenty of SSD space on 3 separate drives, yet the latest CC apps are super slow, no matter what settings I use. I did download a prior version of ACR and it improved performance, but it was unable to ready my raw images from my Canon EOS R.
ON1 wins on my computer for speed and performance overall.
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I find On1 slow compared with other programs. I see Brian said "ON1 does not work like other programs. It is far more GPU intensive than those other programs" and I don't see this. I have a dedicated GPU with 6GB of memory and at no times when I am using PR does the GPU use go above 5% and hardly any memory at all (that isn't the case with other software).
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Martin, have you added an SSD for the program to use for its scratch space as has been discussed in this thread? You will see a noticeable increase in performance if you do that.
Have you set your anti-virus software to turn off live scanning of the scratch space and the PerfectBrowseCache? Those areas are constantly being updated by the program while you are using it and if the AV software is live scanning those locations you get drive contention as both the ON1 program and the AV program are fighting over who gets to use the drive.
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Brian,
Martin, have you added an SSD for the program to use for its scratch space as has been discussed in this thread? You will see a noticeable increase in performance if you do that.
Brian, Yes, I have added an SSD for the scratch space.
Have you set your anti-virus software to turn off live scanning of the scratch space and the PerfectBrowseCache?
Hmm, not sure about that. I use MS security essentials. I don't believe it constantly scans every file written to disk.
My point was that you said "ON1 does not work like other programs. It is far more GPU intensive than those other programs" and my experience with a decentish graphics card (a GTX 1060 with 6GB) I see hardly any GPU use or graphics card memory used at all no matter what I do in PR. And, yes, this is a dedicated GPU in a desktop which only has one graphics card.
I would be interested to know what others see because I've never seen mine go over 5% GPU but when I play a game there is massive use of the GPU. On this forum people often say get a better GPU but if I'm only seeing 5% use (at most) I don't get this advice.
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There was a comment on the Facebook group earlier today where someone was asking about buying a replacement GPU because theirs was constantly being pegged. "GPU question - I find my current GPU is always at 98-100% on the 3D usage graph so am looking to upgrade to newer unit." This is with a "Geforce GTX Nvidia 1050 Ti GPU." Some of the comments there suggested that the amount of VRAM the card holds is a bigger factor in performance.
I run my Windows version in a virtual machine so I can't do any meaningful testing. Maybe Rick or someone else can tell us what they are seeing. I know that my Mac does make use of them. I can hear my fans speed up while I'm editing as well as monitoring them with tools the Mac OS provides. I also run the BOINC (SETI@home) screen saver and that pushes the GPU hard. I have to turn it off while I'm editing, particularly while I'm working with masks.
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Thanks Brian. I am a bit suspicious that PR isn't using my GPU much at all. A 1060 isn't THAT much better than a 1050 although I do have a 6GB module. I definitely have up to date GC drivers. I even tried enabling game mode for PR and have high performance set for PR. I just thought if there was a lot of work to do, then parts of PR would be using the GC and so when PR is slow it seems strange my GC isn't doing much at all.
BTW, I don't do facebook, although I have access to an account, but the group you refer to is closed to non members.
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Have you tried it with Gaming mode turned off? Could there be some kind of contention having both of them on at the same time?
Another factor that affects the performance I see is the order in which I work on things. Are you familiar with the program's editing Pipeline as described in the User Guide on page 8? When I'm working on a lower level in the pipeline, and I have a lot of effects and masks and blending modes applied at higher levels, I'll see a slowdown, especially if a Dynamic Contrast or Noise Reduction Effect has been applied. I'll disable those filters when this happens and the brushing performance improves. This is easy to understand if you think of the cascading affect of having to re-render each layer above the one being worked on. DC & NR are particularly computationally expensive so every change being made having to pass through them again affects performance.
I know not everyone is a Fb fan. :)
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I, like others mentioned above have my GPU not spiking while I use PR. Brian thanks for your multiple responses and attempts to help diagnose the reason for my original post. The only thing I haven't done is go out and purchase an SSD that is dedicated to PR for Scratch space and Cache. But there is no way I should have to do that with the high level setup I have. I've tried everything else mentioned in this thread with no luck. It still takes 4 seconds to load images once you click on them. New to the list I tried to stick a 21 image drone pano with PR and the results were terrible. It leaves black haze in the spots where the images overlap across the image. LR did it perfectly. I say again PR has the better tools and is my preferred editor. But these things have to get better. Ever since the new Mobile app and 360 were implemented the software has failed me.
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Robert, it doesn't matter if you're driving a Lamborghini when all the freeway traffic gets narrowed down to a one lane, one way, bridge crossing a river. Traffic gets backed up and nobody moves very fast.
The idea behind adding the SSD for the Scratch space is to give the I/O channel the program uses the most its own commuter lane across the bridge so it doesn't have to get in line and wait its turn for all the other I/O ahead of it to take place. The program is caching things and reading image files while loading different pieces of itself from disk all while the OS is swapping things in and out of swap space and other background processes are doing their things all wanting that same drive.
You don't have to add a dedicated drive but you will see an improvement in performance if you do. That is indisputable. The choice is yours. Mine cost me all of $80 and it was worth every penny.
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Personally, I prefer Ferrari's!! The only trouble is, just like Photo Raw, when driven hard they tend to crash.... :-)
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Ok Brian. I understand what you are saying. The read/write speeds are faster with an SSD. What size is your SSD? PR is currently installed on my OS SSD drive. I have a separate internal 2 TB 7400 rpm drive that is storing my images and its where PR pulls the files from and what shows up in the catalog in Browse. Is it safe to say that if I installed PR onto that same drive I would get performance improvement? Meaning the location of the files and the installed software are on the same drive. Is it even possible to installed PR onto a non OS "C" drive?
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You cannot install the program itself to another drive as far as I know. You can set things up so your personal files, the Roaming Data stuff can be moved to another drive but I don't know enough Windows to do it.
I have my system set up as follows.
My internal boot drive is pretty small at only 125GB! That is why I moved the PerfectBrowseCache, I'll talk about that below.
I have an external SSD where I've moved most of my personal documents to including the OS's default Pictures folder which I have Cataloged in its entirety.
I have a 2nd 120GB SSD called, wait for it…, Scratch. :) It holds the scratch space for both ON1 and Photoshop as well as the PerfectBrowseCache. Yes, there will be some contention between the scratch space and PBC but only when editing with the Filmstrip visible. Otherwise they are used by different parts of the program, the Browser vs the Editor, so there shouldn't be too much contention. Plus, it gives me plenty of room for the PBC to grow as needed.
The data SSD is connected to a hub with my Time Machine backup drive (Apple's hourly incremental backup system), Wacom tablet, and other devices as needed. The Scratch drive is connected directly to the laptop with its own Lightning connector on the other side of the Mac from the hub connection so they don't even share a data path across the motherboard.
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To answer your question about moving the Photo RAW program to the hard drive with your pictures, I would recommend against that. For one thing it is a spinner so program loading will be significantly slower. Leaving your photos there is fine as that doesn't get accessed quite as much and should only impact the speed of loading the image files.
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Brian just FYI, It is possible to install on1 on the drive of your choice. There is an option at install to select another drive. I just installed PR on a "D" drive on a laptop a while back because the "C" drive was tiny. If I remember correctly it still installs all extras presets etc. in the default C\user\appdata--- folders. That can also be moved in fairly easily Windows.
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Thanks David.
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Are the "scratch files" indicated by the .on1? They currently pop up and then disappear later while I'm editing files. Are these what need to be redirected? They currently write to my internal 7400 RPM drive. Not the OS SSD.
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