Topaz Denoise AI
I am trialling Topaz De Noise AI and blown away by how good it is with noisy images.
Hoping someone who is already using Denoise with ON1 can help me with workflow.
I understand that Denoise should be used before any processing so I have tried batch processing CR2 files in Denoise standalone before processing in ON1 and this seems to work OKish creating DNG files in the same folder which I can then process in ON1.
I've also tried sending a CR2 file to DeNoise (as original rather than copy) and then applying changes but I can't find the copy saved by Denoise.
What is your workflow when using On1 with Denoise?
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Brian, I found Adobe's dng converter easy to use ... just point to a directory and it converts the contents. Of course I don't know what Topaz will do opening a dng ... will it treat it as raw and save it's own dng version. In any case this is clearly in the Topaz court to fix. Submitted a ticket to Topaz
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You need to understand that a DNG converted from a RAW image by the Adobe DNG Converter is still a RAW image, i.e. it is still containing sensor data from the camera.
Saving a image from Topaz Products as a DNG is the same as exporting a TIF from Lightroom. For example a 32.3MB RAF image converted to TIF in Lightroom becomes 154MB and if that is Exported from Lightroom to become a DNG it is 121MB in size.
It is NOT a RAW image but a TIF in a DNG wrapper that is from Topaz products or indeed a TIF exported from Lightroom as a DNG is exactly the same.
The point is that DeNoise will open a DNG created by Adobe DNG Converter and then if you choose to save as DNG it will create a TIF in a DNG wrapper.
The other thing is that DNG is a Archive format and anything, not just RAW images, can be 'archived' to a DNG.
I use ON1 to Topaz and Capture One to Topaz and the following workflow works very well:
- Get the tones right with NO Noise reduction or Sharpening
- Edit in Topaz products sending a TIF
- On return add any other effects or enhancements.
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Thanks Don, I'll report Topaz's response FWIW
Using a convention such as dng and subsequently mangling it >>> very POOR implementation
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Peter,
I think one indication that Topaz DNGs are not "true" DNGs is that they can't be opened with the Preview app on a Mac.
You might want to look on the Topaz forums, where I think this has been discussed. Or post a question there, since there are lot of knowledgable contributors.
I think the consensus is to work with TIFs anyway. My recollection is that with LR/PS, you have no alternative.
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I think you are missing the point, you are thinking RAW image. A RAW image CANNOT have DeNoise applied to it and then export as RAW (DNG) DNG is just a container use for archival of images and they haven't mangled it as LR doesn't mangle it when exporting a JPG, PNG or TIF as a DNG..
Read the DNG specifications that are found on the Adobe web site (DNG is Adobe's creation).
BTW I am also a moderator on the Topaz forum.
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Don,
I think you missed the point - if Topaz uses a mangled dng definition it's misleading.
I'll not post further until Topaz support responds
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I am writing between two sessions with the therapist.
I became more an more optimistic while reading this thread. Because my prior experience with sending DNGs to one of my favorite applications, Topaz DeNoise AI, had ended in frustration. A Topaz person told me, that one (probably a user) could get the impression that the Topaz products support raw files - and that impression might even sometimes be confirmed from the way the applications manage to deal with raw - BUT, OFFICIALLY Topaz is NOT supporting raw files! (not yet).
My impression is that this will change within this year.The interaction with the Topaz support person was based on the fact, that my DeNoise AI had rejected any of my ARWs and DNGs so far, and I had a vague memory of success with a raw file in a Topaz product.
Now from reading here my expectations rose. Could it be that a new version of DeNoise AI had been released after I tried with a DNG the last time. And could that version be the first to accept DNGs. Imagine my excitement when a new update of DeNoise AI was available - AND --- when installed YES MAN! - my first DNG moved from PR's browser to DeNoise AI on the Desktop and opened in a second. I could do all the de-noising tricks and save the impressive result without problems.
After that the fun stopped. The next image, and the next, and ... all the following attempts to replicate the first success ended up in one of two disappointments, either an unusable thumb nail of my image was loaded, or I got the official message from DeNoise AI, "Unsupported Image Format" as shown below.
I wonder if this is a new problem for Windows users exclusively?
(the therapist calls)
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I was getting the unsupported image message for EVERY format that I was using weather RAW, JPG or TIFF, but when clicking OK, everything continued normally with all of the files.
Just ignore the message, if it works, it works. If not, then you know it's unsupported.
I haven't found an actually unsupported file yet.
EDIT: also the message was only when dropping files, not when using 'Send To'.
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I was reading through some of the Topaz support pages yesterday and they said that they do support processing RAW files for certain camera and RAW file formats. They also said their software was not designed to be a RAW processor though and you get better results if you do your basic RAW processing elsewhere first then, export that for their software to use.
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Rick and Brian,
What I show in the "Unsupported ..." image above is a full stop. Nothing further will happen until I click the x or OK, then the message disappears ;O)
In this case the DNG was moved from the browser and dropped on the DeNoise AI shortcut on the Desktop.
If I open DeNoise AI and drop the file in the drag and drop field, I get the message you see in the second image below + a tumb nail of the image has been loaded and could be processed - as a thumb nail :o.
Below is what happens if I choose: Send to Topaz DeNoise AI, first with the option Original and then with Settings Applied (i.e. as a PSD file). In the first case - a dark screen - in the second, with Settings Applied ( PSD), the shown message.
I can accept that Topaz could have extended problems with the ARW files from the latest Sony A7R series, but my camera is a Mark III, so not especially new on the market. Now, what really makes me feel like Cinderella confronting evil stepsisters is the fact that DNG files - a general and open format - apparently can be opened from other systems (Macs I presume ...!), but not from the Win systems.
How come?
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I used the .ARW file of yours from the masking problem and tried dragging and dropping into an already running DeNoise AI and using the Send To… command in ON1 to send the original raw file (DeNoise was not running) and in both cases DeNoise opened it without any problems. I have the latest version released yesterday.
I don't know if this is a Mac vs Windows thing or something specific with your setup Eigil. If you are having problems getting DeNoise to open your files you should probably be talking to Topaz about it. They say on their web site that they are not compatible with ON1 so I wouldn't mention that to them. Only ask about using it as a stand-alone program.
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Brian,
My version of DeNoise AI is 2.2.9.
My Win configuration has been approved by Topaz after I recently experienced problems with the raw files before I got interested in Photo Raw. I have tried with a Fuji RAF file also without luck.
As mentioned, their rather defensive attitude was, that officially they don't support raw files - though we could have luck with them in random cases. They also told me that they prepare a general acceptance of raw files - but their applications are not equally suited for that modification, so some will go public before others. I hope DeNoise and Sharpen will be prioritized highest.
The odd thing is, that I could load a PNG once into v. 2.2.9. - and then nothing plays.
Btw the PR runs swift and fine by now on my PC and SSD.
Did you make the successful test in your virtual Win or in native Mac?
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I was running native Mac OS.
As noted in this thread the workflow that seems the best, and is repeated on the Topaz forums, is to do basic raw processing in your favorite app for that. Export that to a tiff to send to Topaz and continue working on the tiff that Topaz returns. It may be the same file (Send To… or plug-in use) or it may be a new file with the processing appended to the name (stand-alone).
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Good, with Mac you are probably bound to have no problems.
I have a strange feeling about the fact, that the same software often performs different on Mac and Win systems, predominantly favoring Macintosh. It's not just the case within ON1, it's all over the market for image related software. Sometimes I get the feeling of have been caught in a cross fire from a war on market shares.
I want the noise dealt with as early as possible in my workflow. Otherwise it will influence later adjustments. So, I want to preserve the flexibility of the raw file as long as possible. TIFFs have been less responsive in the raw converters I know about - including Capture One.
I recently installed the latest DNG converter from Adobe, and maybe the conversion has changed to the worse regarding ARW files. Who knows. Are you aware of alternative DNG converters?
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I do not know of any other DNG converters.
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A small workaround on my Win system.
If (so far) a DNG file is moved from the Photo Raw browser directly to the DeNoise AI shortcut on the Desktop (as shown in one of the images above), then DeNoise AI will reject the file.
BUT - If the DNG file is first moved from the PR browser to the Desktop, and then moved from its new position to hover over the Desktop shortcut for DeNoise AI, a small text appears along the DNG icon saying "+ Open with Topaz DeNoise AI", and when the file is dropped, the DNG opens normally in DeNoise AI. Unfortunately this deems the navigational features in PR useless on my system.
After the de-noise adjustment has been applied, the DNG is saved to the Desktop without any option to change the name and destination, so the output file will replace the original without warning. Important then, that the original file is a copy.
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I use the Show in Finder/Windows Explorer command to open a window in the OS then I drag from there to an already running DeNoise. It's a little less convenient but it is more stable so it saves time in the long run. FWIW. :)
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Launching the DeNoise before sending the image file to gives you the option to Save before quitting the program. It defaults to saving a new file and appending the processing used to its name.
When you send to the unopened program it is being used as a plug-in regardless of which program you send it from. In that mode it will overwrite the file it received for processing. This is to be expected from a plug-in.
Have you looked at its Preferences for saving and renaming files?
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Can't you just drag from On1 then drop on Denoise? That's what I do.
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I can but it doesn't always work for me. And, because of how I have my system's workspace set up, it is more convenient the other way.
I usually run ON1 in the Mac OS's Full Screen mode where the program's window fills the monitor and even the Menu Bar (we have only one, shared, at the top of the display) is hidden until you mouse up to it. I have to switch to a different Desktop for other programs. Show in Finder switches to that Desktop, then drag onto the already running DeNoise program window is quick and easy for me.
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Brian and Rick,
Brian: When you send to the unopened program it is being used as a plug-in regardless of which program you send it from. In that mode it will overwrite the file it received for processing. This is to be expected from a plug-in.
This is very useful information, thank you, Brian. I have tested with a "Topaz Temp" folder on the Desktop.
Now - when I drag a number of image files from the PR browser and drop them on the temp folder, run DeNoise Ai, and then drag the files to the drop-area in DeNoise AI - I am prompted for an output location when DeNoise AI has done its job.
To my surprise ARW, RAF and DNG files are all accepted by DeNoise AI with this approach (provided they are loaded and processed one by one - if I batch process ARWs with DNGs, the ARWs are rejected with the old well known - "Unsupported ..." message.)Brian: Have you looked at its Preferences for saving and renaming files?
Yes, it would normally be the suffix "DeNoiseAI" (for some reason it is now written as "DeNoiseAI-denoise").
A coupe of details to be aware of with (my) Windows (10):
1. When the image files are dragged from the PR browser to the topaz-temp folder, the Ctrl button must be held down (to copy), otherwise the file will be moved away from the PR browser display.
2. The raw files (in this case ARWs and RAFs) will be saved as DNG files from DeNoise AI, so the output files - whether they originally were raws or dngs - will end up with the .dng extension, and if the filenames were not qualified from the beginning, they will end up with the same filename.
3. When the output DNGs from DeNoise AI (now resting in the topaz-temp folder) are dragged back into the PR browser (I have done it one by one for the following reason) - the first attempt (can) seem to have no effect. Nothing changes - except a small jump, no file is added to the display. Then the second attempt will reveal the message shown below. If I choose Replace - the image will finally be visible in the browser.
It would be nice with a Refresh option for the display - to let PR make a new read from the folder on the disk.Now the topaz-temp folder must be cleaned for image files and small .on1s. The trash can is at work.
Finally, though this workaround is the most effective at the moment - it parks the Send feature i PR on a sidetrack. It would be nice, if this could be better integrated in a cooperation between Topaz and ON1.
Rick: Can't you just drag from On1 then drop on Denoise? That's what I do.
I can't on my Win, all the frustrations were let out earlier in this thread. It would of course be the obvious way.
Oh, I almost forgot this. Even though my uncompressed ARW files at 82 Mb could be converted with Adobe's DNG converter to a size of only 35 Mb, this is not a gain any longer. The ARW file and the much smaller DNG version both com out from DeNoise AI as (Topaz-) DNG files at ... 240 Mb! So, why not use the ARW file.
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3. I find the Browser slow to update. Export an image with the sort order set to Filename and the newly created jpg, tiff, psd will show up as the last item in the window. Choosing to reverse the sort order puts it into the correct location. When I send to Topaz the new file returned does not show up either as you've described. I just go to the parent folder then back into the working folder to force the browser display to refresh and the new file(s) show up.
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Good, thanks.
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Update from Topaz isn't reassuring wrt DNG
"I've submitted your images to our development team, but I don't know when I'll have any specific updates for this behavior. I don't expect any updates to be immediate as meta-data issues are not part of our current development cycle in this program. However we are logging them with images such as this for future research."
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Sorry to be a late comer to this thread. I just finished a shoot in dawn/overcast conditions at a Sand Hil Crane reserve hand held. All shots (on full manual) with Auto ISO wound up at 12,000 which was TERRIBLE. I found AI Denoise on a Facebook group for my Tamron 150-600 and after the first trail I was sold. It seems to me that ON1 should start to apply some of their brain power to de-noise which is a much more common issue than these other embellishments they are pushing in the upcoming release. Unfortunately, now I am stuck in the multiple tool muck. I got some great shots with sharp focus but too much noise to be of use. AI Denoise saved my morning. Rather that talk about passing file formats back and forth, how about ON1 stepping up it's game?
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Agree with you Rich Purdum. The noise reduction in ON1 is well below par.
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Agreed, I also bought DeNoise AI. Only problem is that you leave the RAW workflow.
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After skimming this topic over the weekend I went back today to give it a through reading. I must confess my head was spinning before I could reach the end. Since I don't think (hope) I will be fighting the high ISO problem on every shoot or shot I guess I will stumble my way through the labyrinth as needed. As a retired IT person I have many scars from trying to get applications to play nice with each other. Let us hope this ON1/Topaz lash-up will get easier to navigate.
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I'm trialing ON1 PR 2021 and am mostly very impressed with it. My primry editor has been Luminar 4 and for a variety of reasons I'm looking to make a change.
I am finding the same problems with ON1 to Topaz as others here when trying to send my CR3 Raw file. Somehow Luminar works magic with Topaz. I have it setup as a plugin in Luminar 4 and can send the CR3 file to Denoise. After Processing the DeNoised CR3 is available in L4 for further editing. When I'm done I can export it from L4 and it is still DeNoised.
I don't undersand why the engineers can't do the same thing with PR. It is really great because I don't have to do any conversions and I can come back at any time to my CR3 for further editing.
This issue is just about the only thing holding me back from buying PR.
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If you send the original RAW file to Topaz you are letting it do the RAW conversion for you. Topaz recommends that you use a RAW processor like Photo RAW to do the conversion then export that to send to Topaz. That's the workflow I use. I do basic tonal corrections then send that to Topaz with the Send To command with the option to export to a TIFF to be sent. I get the same TIFF back from Topaz and continue with fine tuning and color correction work.
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