Topaz Denoise AI
I am trialling Topaz De Noise AI and blown away by how good it is with noisy images.
Hoping someone who is already using Denoise with ON1 can help me with workflow.
I understand that Denoise should be used before any processing so I have tried batch processing CR2 files in Denoise standalone before processing in ON1 and this seems to work OKish creating DNG files in the same folder which I can then process in ON1.
I've also tried sending a CR2 file to DeNoise (as original rather than copy) and then applying changes but I can't find the copy saved by Denoise.
What is your workflow when using On1 with Denoise?
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I sent Topaz a message and said if they would just enable the Save As dialog when a RAW file is sent as it is when a file is dropped, it would all work well with On1.
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Ray, yes you're misunderstanding me. I already mentioned most of this way back at the top of this thread:
- You can use 'Send To' for TIFF, JPG and PNG and Topaz will save its edits back in the same file.
- If you want to send an edited photo to Topaz, you must either use 'Send To' to bake in the edits first, or export and either send or drop that file.
- If you use 'Send To' with a RAW file, topaz won't save anything. It doesn't offer to save as an alternate file type.
- Topaz WILL save as a new file if you Drop a RAW file on it.
- When using 'Send To' Topaz returns with the same file name
- When Dropping a file, Topaz appends the filename with a suffix.
- Topaz must be closed in order to use 'Send To'. If it's already open for dropping, it ignores files sent.
- Topaz must be open in order to Drop a file. If it's open, you can't use 'Send To'.
To help myself keep track of what's sharpened, de-noised or resized after 'Send To', I made up a list of tags. I just add a tag to the returned file. The numbers allow me to select them with only one keystroke...
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I agree with Brian and my workflow is the same.
There has to be a conversion at some point since Topaz can't save back to the original CR3, so letting On1 do that simplifies the process. The TIFF is created right in Browse and Topaz will save the Denoised version back to it.
One suggestion, after Denoise is done, do Refresh Preview (on the Photo menu) for the TIFF so that On1 is using the new file and not a cached version of it.
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Thanks Don. I haven't been saying that Topaz is updating the RAW file. If I open the same RAW file in another program after it shows denoised in Luminar it will still have all the original noise. It seems that it is working like a part of Luminar (a denoise layer perhaps) because it definitely is denoised when I view it in Luminar as the same CR3 file and when I export it as a TIFF, jpg or whatever.
I am certainly not trying to promote Luminar here, in fact because of the direction they are taking I am trying to find a good alernative. Thus far PR is at the top of my list. Other than the Plugin issue and simple sky replacement it has a lot more features that I really like.
PS - I just looked at Luminar 4 and it does show a 'Topaz Denoise Layer'.
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If you use 'Send To' to send a RAW file, you won't get any file back. This is a limitation of Topaz. I have mentioned this to their support people, but they say they don't support On1, so it's working as intended.
If you use 'send to' with JPG, TIFF or DNG then Topaz will save its results back in the same file. Note that you can have On1 create a TIFF for you and have that sent if you like, it will bake in any edits that you've already done.
So, if you want to use it with RAW, you have to use Topaz in standalone mode and drop the RAW file on it. Then you'll get a dialog to save in another format.
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I've been using Denoise AI and On1 for a while and settled on opening files in Denoise as a stand alone. If there are files that need some minor tweaks in On1 develop I'll export to tiff then open in Denoise and finish in On1 effects and local.
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Thanks Rick and Peter,
As I want to work in RAW, I guess my workflow will be in ON1 to view the photo before processing. If it needs noise removed, then "Show file in Explorer" and open the cr2 file in DeNoise. Save the edited file in DeNoise as a DNG file which I can then edit in ON1.
Do you have any workflow to indicate that you are processing the DNG file rather than the original Raw file.
Are the Topaz Denoise changes embedded in the Raw file? Can I remove them?
It would be good if ON1 could send a DNG file to Topaz Denoise.
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Do you have any workflow to indicate that you are processing the DNG file rather than the original Raw file.
Only the file name, but ASAIK a DNG file is roughly the same as a raw file
Are the Topaz Denoise changes embedded in the Raw file? Can I remove them?
I believe that raw files are not modified in any way regardless of the program ... modifications are saved in a text file using the original file name with a different extension.
- original raw new name 2nd new name
- P1180015.RW2 P1180015.xmp P1180015.on1
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No Raw editor save changes in the RAW file, that would destroy the RAW. That's why On1 has sidecars and why you don't get any file by sending RAW to Topaz, it has nowhere to save the file.
You don't need to 'Show in Explorer', just drag the file (RAW, JPG or TIFF) from On1 to Topaz and it will open. If you're not sure which file you're working on, turn on 'Always Show Filenames' in On1
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I use Topaz DeNoise and Sharpen, both as standalones and by sending a TIFF from within On1. When I use the standalone, I save my images as a separate DNG with a suffix to indicate that it's been edited (This can be set up within the apps) and I send it to the same folder where the original is kept. Unfortunately, when sending from within On1, the TIFF or JPG merely has "copy" appended and I usually try to remember to rename it manually.
I was recently invited to be a beta tester for Topaz and have already had a Zoom session with one of its engineers. He said they'd be looking at the option of being able to append the prefix or suffix before the file is sent back to On1 or LR or wherever. I have another session scheduled for next week, and one of the things he wants to talk to me about is my workflow as an On1 user. So it's possible there will be greater integration at some point.
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Topaz AI applications are standalone applications but also work in plugin mode from a calling application or from apps such as Affinity Photo, Photoshop etc. And because the application will open in plugin mode when called from an application or say using Open with from either Finder (Mac) or Explorer (Win). Plugin mode means the image passed is updated and rewritten but RAW images are never updated because they simply cannot be ... BUT ... be careful because DNGs WILL be overwritten if they are passed because it is a supported output format..
The other thing to remember is that the DNGs produced by Sharpen AI, DeNoise AI, JPEG to RAW AI, GigaPixel AI, Adjust AI etc. are NOT RAW images but a TIF in the DNG shell with a profile.
Your workflow should be to pass a TIF, JPG or PNG, process that and it will be automatically updated.
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The other thing to remember is that the DNGs produced by Sharpen AI, DeNoise AI, JPEG to RAW AI, GigaPixel AI, Adjust AI etc. are NOT RAW images but a TIF in the DNG shell with a profile.
When I open a raw file directly in Topaz Denoise AI the results are saved as a dng file. My experience is On1 treats this dng file as raw.
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I have reasons for sending RAW files directly to Topaz. It would be easier if I could just use Send To and get a TIFF back instead of having to open the app first to drop the file. Then later have to close the app in order to use Send To with TIFFS. It's frustrating and it's messing up my workflow to have to keep switching between both modes.
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Rick, I may be misunderstanding you, but I am working right now on some photos from a while back with the latest version of DeNoise AI. I send them direct from AI as a TIF:
DeNoise opens automatically and I am either able to use the Auto function or tweak the settings (In this instance I took sharpening right down to zero as the subject is a bit blurred so I want to run the result though Sharpen AI as well)
Once the file is processed, it is sent automatically back to On1 as a TIF. As I said before, the annoyance is that at present I have to change the final name myself, so I can recognise what I have done to it:
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Ray, do you see any difference in how DeNoise processes the RAW file vs sending the unprocessed file as a TIFF from ON1?
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Brian
I am about to re-do some night shots of Venice, where I hope to get a better result with the new Low Light mode in DeNoise. I will give it a go with 3 vacations. Standalone editing original DNG. Send from On1 with some nor changes. Send from On1 with no editing but as a TIF. I will post my findings later.
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Thanks Ray, I've been playing with that myself but not as extensively so far. Thought you might have gone through it already. :)
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Rick, thanks for the tip about using keywords. I have never used them, so it didn't occur to me! I will now learn how to do so.
I don't know anything about colour there, but my feeling is that when there is a lot of colour noise in a shot, de-noising it can result in aberrations in the magenta and cyan spectra. I encountered this last year when I mistaknley took a lot of shot in daylight at ridiculously high ISOs. After de-noising I had to do further tweaking in On1 to obtain acceptable blacks and purples. Here is one such shot and, although I applied the same filters in the version I sent from On1 as a copy, my subjective opinion is that the colours are much richer in the version I despised in standalone mode:
Sent from On1 as a tif
Standalone version as DNG
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But:
Curiouser and curiouser.
Here are the results from a shot taken at night, handheld so underexposed. In each instance I used On1's AI auto to do a basic adjustment, either before sending, or afterwards when using DeNoise standalone.
These are zoomed are at 100%. In my view the best result is from sending as a TIF copy. The 2 I edited in standalone mode have a heavy purple/magenta cast and the TV antennae are blurred. Sending the original from On1 doesn't seem to have removed the noise from the sky. They were all processed by DeNoise in auto/lowlight mode.
Sent from On1 as a TIF (Best result)
Sent from On1 as "original"
Edited in standalone and saved as DNG
Edited in standalone and saved as TIF
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You could be using two different Raw engines there. When you send a TIFF from On1, it uses On1s own RAW engine to convert that. When you drop a file, you bypass On1 and Denoise (or Sharpen) uses your default RAW engine to open the file.
This is the exact reason I sometimes need to drop a RAW rather than send a TIFF. On1s conversion often blows out highlights during conversion but dropping keeps that from happening.
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Topaz AI apps need to be closed when sending a image from another application because they open in plugin mode.
Especially for DeNoise AI, it is best to get the basic adjustments correct (e.g. exposure, highlight & shadow recovery etc.) and do not apply any noise reduction at all.
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Many thanks for the helpful responses to my question. Since posting, I have watched a few videos and studied the reponses to my question.
Have I got the workflow right?
DNG Workflow
1. Import CR2 in ON1 (no processing in ON1 until after denoise)
2. Drag CR2 from ON1 to DeNoise AI
3. Process DNG in DeNoise AI
4. Save as DNG in ON1 Source directory
5. Process DNG in ON1 - Develop, Effects, Local
6. Send to Sharpen AI edit a copy with settings applied (ON1 creates TIF)
7. Process TIF in Sharpen AI
8. Save changes to TIF
9 Export as JPGDo I understand correctly that Topaz is not a non destructive application. The changes it makes to a DNG or TIF cannot be undone?
Also does it make any difference in ON1 processing whether I process develop, effects or local adjustments in a DNG or a TIF?
Looking at the file sizes, as the DNG and TIF are not non destructive and therefore denoise and sharpen cannot be revisited, is there any point keeping the DNG and TIF files once the JPEG has been exported? (Although I guess the ON1 settings on the DNG could be re-edited)
Original CR2 = 31.2mb
DNG = 137 mb
ON1 = 43 kb
TIF = 183 mb
JPG = 18.2 mbIf you do keep the dng and tif, how do you keep from getting confused when browsing in ON1?
Rick Sammartino, your tagging idea looks interesting but I don't really follow it. I'd very much appreciate more detail on your workflow.
Also some further questions:
1. What percentage of your photos in ON1 do you convert to DNG or TIF and process in Topaz DeNoise AI
2. Same question for Topaz Sharpen AI
Both these apps seem slow compared to ON1 especially sharpen so I wonder if I buy Topaz, do I just use it as an exception rather than a rule. The videos I have watched seem to imply that DeNoise could be used on most photos but only use Topaz Sharpen when there are focus issues.
I'm also wondering why Topaz has such a size impact on the DNG, if I use Adobe DNG Convertor, the CR2 file actually reduces in size from 31.2mb to 27.6 mb
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- Your workflow looks ok, but there is no hard rule about it. You may have to re-arrange things depending on the photo. You'll want to keep in mind that On1 works best with RAW when bringing detail out, so there may be times when you want to start with On1 for colour balance and detail, then convert for Topaz and continue after that in On1 again.
- Somehow between #2 and #3, you changed from CR2 to DNG.
- Topaz is non-destructive to RAW files and it will save in another format, but if you send non-raw files it will save back to the same file.
- Does it make a difference to On1? Yes as mentioned in the first point
- If I recall, someone said the Topaz DNG had a bug that made it bigger than it should be. If true, that will be fixed.
- You only need to keep the in-between files if you think that you still need them. With all of these programs making copies, you'll end up with half-done processing in most of them. You'll keep the RAW and the final for sure, but everything in between is optional.
- The keywords I posted are just an example of how I do it. You can set up your own system. When I send a file to sharpen and get it back again, I tag it with '4-Sharpened' otherwise I wouldn't know later if I did it or not. As I mentioned, hitting '4' on my keypad is quick and saves me having to spell anything.
- You're going to have to become familiar with the various software to determine what photos need what procedures. Sometimes Denoise does enough sharpening that you don't need Sharpen too, Sometimes you need to process in On1 before sending it to another app. There are lots of possibilities.
- I use Sharpen on almost everything because all of my shots are handheld with a long lens and need stabilizing, you may not need that. many of my shots need denoise because my camera has a lot of noise at high ISO, you may not need that. Go practice on a few and see how it needs to work for yourself.
Good luck.
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Rick's advice is always sound and, when it comes to On1, he really knows his stuff. I have only been using it for a few months and agree that there is no one size that fits all. Besides, the software itself is changing. I tried to edit my high ISO DNGs direct in DeNoise soon after I shot them just over a year ago. The results weren't great (although I do have a camera that handles high ISOs pretty well). Now that Topaz has come up with a Low Light mode in DeNoise, I have been able to take another look at them and got better results. I did find that I had to do further editing in On1 to get true blacks and the particular purple that the Easter celebrants were wearing.
I don't print my photos, so rarely bother to remove the noise from shots taken at lower than about 200 ISO. I can't tell the difference when I view them as slideshows on my UHD TV. Up to about 800 ISO I find the noise removal function in On1 itself adequate enough for my needs. Over that, I zoom in and then decide whether to process in DeNoise AI. I used to use the clear/auto model a lot, but I am now more inclined to go for regular denoise. I often turn on the low light mode even when it's not, just to see what the difference is. DeNoise does pretty well on standard sharpening as you know, so if you pre-edit in On1, I believe it's best to not do any noise removal or sharpening there and let DeNoise handle it.
Like Rick, I use Sharpen AI for blurred or out of focus shots. It doesn't always work, but is worth a try. I have a zoom lens that tends to not be the sharpest at 200mm on my APSC Sony (300 approx on a DSLR), plus there's the inevitable camera shake when hand holding. Sharpen AI has done a brilliant job on some of my wildlife shots. Sadly, I haven't been out shooting wildlife this year. Or anything else really. Nor have I been able to order the new 300/400+mm Sigma lens that I have my eye on. My planned trip to the Hindu Kush, scheduled for this October, will have to wait until next year at the earliest!
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The only thing I would add to Rick's workflow is the caveat that ON1 does not allow all the processing on a dng file that it does for a RAW. For instance, you cannot use Camera Profile and you loose the ability to measure color temperature in ºK. They are minor things but sometimes they make a difference and can affect your choice to use DeNoise before or after any ON1 RAW processing.
Also, someone mentioned that the .dng files are actually wrappers around a TIFF image. I want to look into that a little further. I'm not sure what benefit a .dng would provide in that case.
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Brian, My experience using Topaz Denoise AI with raw files (opening directly in Topaz) and then editing the saved dng file in On1
- Camera profiles not available
- Kelvin not available in color temp
- Lens Profile is available and automatically selected
I'm not an expert using dng files and would like to know more about dng wrapper around tiff; also why lens profile is available and not camera profiles when editing a Topaz produced tiff
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Thanks for the further comments.
I was led to believe that I should use denoise first but if I can use on1 processing first then this makes life simpler.
So I do all processing in on1, develop, effects, local adjustments but not noise, sharpening, then send tif to denoise and then topaz sharpen if required.
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Peter, Camera Profiles are just LUTs applied after the RAW data has been de-bayered and assembled into a visible image but before any processing you do to the image. Kind of a pre-processing LUT. I don't know the technical details of why they are available for RAW files but not for pixel image formatted files.
Stefan, not quite IMO. You don't want to do all the processing in ON1 before you send to DeNoise. Processing can enhance the noise making it harder to remove. You want to remove the noise as early as possible in the workflow. If I do any processing to an image before sending it to DeNoise it is just to get to the base Tone and color look. Effects, Local Adjustments, etc I do after using DeNoise.
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You only get camera profiles, kelvin and the new highlight recovery for supported (Tier 1) RAW files. If it's not supported or not RAW, you won't be able to select them. For example, even though I work with Olympus RAW files, I will never see those since my camera is Tier 2.
The camera and lens info is part of metadata which is included with the file passed to and received back from Topaz.
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Thanks Brian, I'm hard pressed to believe that dng files don't have the same information available as do raw files. I think that Topaz dng files are not created correctly wrt Adobe. Here's my workflow regading that statement:
- download dng converter from Adobe
- convert one of my raw files to dng
- open converted dng file
- appears that all data is available to On1
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