Photo Raw 2021 Performance
I have experienced performance issues when running Photo Raw 2020.5 on Windows 10. Despite raising support cases these were never resolved, and I have actually rolled back to 2020.1. I see from other posts that I am not alone in having these problems.
I notice that version 2021 is due to be released next month. I wondered if anybody had been a tester or beta user. If so, are you able to comment on the performance of the new version on Windows. This information would help me make a decision to upgrade, which at the moment, I see as a big risk to stability and performance.
Thanks.
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I also found 2020.1 to be marginally better than the 2020.5.x so far. I guess ON1 went too fast with 360 and now with the new feature set coming up in 2021 with no concrete information on any bug fixes (from ON1 and support), I guess we will have to wait and see. There is a live session today to demonstrate the new features...Let's see...
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Hi Nitin,
I thought you had already jumped ship to Lightroom!!
I can fully understand that On1 do not mention bug fixes in their marketing for 2021, but that does leave us long-suffering existing users in the dark. I doubt if the live session today will be any different. This is why I raised this post, and I have also asked Sales for their view of the progress of bug fixes. It appears to be difficult to get any assurances before spending more money on 2021....
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I think that the photo raw expereince depends on your PC. Mine were recently thrown into IT meltdown by the Windows 10 May update, which arrived late in August. Things became so bad, that even MS Word was unstable. I contacted my friendly local IT repair service, and (a) they confirmed that it was Windows 10 that was causing all of the mayhem. So, I had the hard drives replaced with solid state drives.
Both Windows 10 and Photo Raw 2020.5.1 and Windows 10 now seem to be running very well. In the past I could not catalogue, but since the SSDs were installed, catalogues are now working. Since my PCs were upgraded, my PR experience has been massively improved. There are bugs in any software, but don't forget to also check Task Manager and your graphics settings.
Only the Alpha testers can comment on bugs in PR 2021, but of course they should not be saying anything to us non-alpha testers.
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Hi Roger,
I almost did, but, Adobe gave me 3 months free before I actually cancelled and I remain with LR for now, but, I still have some hope for ON1...Since I already paid for it :)
Anyway, I realised later that I cannot switch to ON1 since I have extensively tagged faces in LR and I use image stacks for stacking (mostly macros, but, also for HDR and Panos). I don't use smart albums, so, could not care less about those as also the cloud sync.
Also, I use 2 systems (desktop and laptop) and being a dev I keep installing and messing with the system and therefore keep reformatting/reinstalling and ON1 is a major pain even with 50k images. LR catalogs and previews can be backed up and restored across systems.
I also keep this on an external drive which I can open on any system which is not possible with ON1. Plus there are too many nuances with ON1 for now...For example, check the crop...Has fractional values which is not possible as also Title/Description and similar metadata fields that are just put all over the place. If you try a select all (CMD+A) in a metadata field (for example keywords), ON1 selects all images instead.
I also have Luminar 4, but, it is only good as a plugin (for me) and I can use ON1 in a similar fashion for the feature I find are better in ON1. Issue with the current version of ON1 is that I cannot even switch off the creation of .on1 files (already a reported bug besides quite a few others).
I have plenty of patience. Will check out 2021 before I decide if it is usable. If 2021 fixes the basic issues, I stay with it otherwise I just pay Adobe for another year and will try ON1 out again a year or so later... :)
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Hi everyone, ... same problems here too on high-end PC with SSD!
I like Photo Raw, but unfortunately the performance of the latest version is not enough to work smoothly.
Everything is generally slow ....it feels like a kind of general lag.
So I hope they solve these problems with the next version - which I already pre-ordered - otherwise I think I'll ask for a refund!
Regards.0 -
At the risk of repeating myself, have you added an SSD dedicated to the program's Scratch space? It needs to have a direct connection to the system and not be connected through a hub that shares its I/O connection with other drives or daisy chained to another drive. It needs to have a dedicated I/O channel so the program does not have to wait for other system I/O to happen before ON1 gets its turn accessing the drive. The program is constantly reading & writing to its scratch space while you are editing so when that space is on a shared drive or on a spinning hard drive things don't happen as fast as they should.
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Hi Brian,
I have yet to add a dedicated SSD as you suggest. Please don't be offended because I always appreciate your suggestions, but I have yet to see (I may have missed it) a user confirm on the forum that the SSD fixed perfomance issues. Given that there are so many variables, a fix for one may not work elsewhere. I am therefore reluctant to spend more money on an SSD that may prove redundant. Have you heard back from other users, or are you able to give me any other assurances.
Thanks,
Roger
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No offense taken. There have been several users report their satisfaction after making the change, one just recently.
Martin de Jong, "Last weekend I moved both cache files to an external ssd disk and the performance is indeed much better." https://on1help.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/360055888012-Using-an-external-SSD-for-caching
There are more. Even Hudson Henry makes this recommendation in one of his videos.
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Roger, the analogy I use is to think of the I/O traffic as a multi-lane freeway that has to cross a one-way, one-lane bridge between the CPU and the I/O device. When the OS, the program, possibly your image photos, and the scratch space are all on the same drive, all that I/O traffic gets backed up and even if your system is a Ferrari it still has to slow down to cross the bridge.
Adding the SSD gives the I/O channel the program uses the most during editing its own private lane across the bridge. The only slowdown is the speed of the drive and the I/O channel, no waiting in line with everyone else.
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Great, thanks for the feedback from other users and the additional information. If/when I take the plunge on building a new road, I will let you know how it goes!!
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Hi Roger
I am afraid that you did miss it. (See my comments above in this forum). Fitting an SSD did indeed speed up my laptops, and Brian's ‘Freeway explanation’ sounds about right.
A pair of SSDs for a pair of laptops, was to me, at least, a gut wrenching sum of money. But, I now have two laptops, (both of which are primarily needed for work, but which also process images for my hobby), which are quick to start and run well. Whereas before, one of them was taking over twenty minutes just to go from off to ready to work.
I was reluctant to spend the money, but I studied Task Manager on Windows 10, and eventually realised that the bottle neck, or 'narrow bridge', was the hard drive. The SSDs are estimated to read and write at approx. ten times the speed that my old HHDs could manage. So, I bit the bullet, and I am very happy with the result.
I suggest that you should watch Task Manager, as your PC goes through various tasks. It will soon tell you where the bottlenecks are on your machine . (My machines bottlenecks are now the CPUs).
I have a low powered vintage 2012 AMD A6 powered laptop, with an SSD, and Photo Raw 2020.5.1 runs well on it. Before the SSD was fitted, PR 2020 was jittery, and crashed frequently. (Hence my comments about a large slice of the User Experience depending on the power of your machine).
My other laptop has an AMD A12, and 16 GB of RAM, and only the integrated graphics. It ran PR 2020.5.1, when it had a HDD, but absolutely flies now that it has been fitted with an SSD. (Except when it is using the CPU for a task such as export).
For simple editing, PR 2020 runs quickly on my A12 laptop. But, as I get into ever more complex editing, with multiple layers containing edited raw files, and especially if I am layering multiple complex masks. Then things slow down an awful lot. Essentially Task Manager says that I have used up almost all of the 16 GB of RAM. (Add up Windows 10, Photo Raw, Photo Raw's Cache, and the 7.5 GB of RAM that powers the integrated graphics). At which point, I normally go back to Browse and let it save/update the ON1 file. Then I proceed with caution, as any PC will crash, the split second that it needs more RAM and discovers that it has already used all of the available RAM...
The only point where I disagree with Brian Lawson is on the plug in SSD. I can't afford one, so I make do with a USB 3.1 plug in stick with 64 GB of RAM. It is not as good as buying a plug in SSD, but according to Task Manager it works just fine.
I strongly advise you to use Task Manager as you put your PC through it’s paces and identify where the bottlenecks are.
Best wishes
David Price
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Thanks a lot David. Perhaps I should have mentioned earlier that my PC is relatively new and high spec, and runs on an SSD. This is another reason for my uncertainty about adding an external SSD. However, I guess a clue I should have recognised is the fact that On1 provide the option to move the location of the scratch file and cache. This is obviously done for a reason...
Regarding the task manager, Photo Raw seems to add a fairly consistent 16% to "memory", and I see a temporary spike on "CPU" from 7% to 40% while using an adjustment brush, for example. I'm not sure what this means in terms of bottlenecks. Do these numbers suggest anything to you that will help my decision on an exernal SSD?
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You'll want to watch the disk I/O usage to find the bottlenecks that a dedicated scratch SSD would affect. Watch how that changes as Windows is starting up, programs are being loaded, and when performing different tasks in Photo RAW.
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Roger. You would be better off with an internal SSD connected directly to your SATA chip and even better would be an PCI NVME but they are expensive. An external SSD may be slowed depending on how it is connected to your PC. An internal SSD just for the directories which On1 allow you to move speeded up On1 an appreciable amount for me - especially when first accessing a new folder with photographs.
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When it comes to computers speed is a relative thing. At one time an Intel Core i7 was considered to be very fast, but Intel now sells Core i9s, because they are much faster. The same can be said of SSDs, mine are linked to the old fashioned and rather slow SATA connectors, because that is all that the mother boards can offer. However, the very newest computers today can offer SSDs that connect via PCIe4. Everything is getting ever quicker. And I have no doubt that PR, just like any other programme, will run quicker on a faster machine.
Martin is right, the USB connectors do slow down the transmission of data, and the one that connects more directly to your CPU will be on a faster line.
My plug in 64 GB USB stick, is much slower than an external SSD, and slower still than an internal SSD. But, also much cheaper, and they did speed up my laptops when they were running PR.
I think that the scratch disks allow me to push my PCs that little bit further, when I am doing the kind of editing that uses up almost all of the available RAM. But, every machine will be different, so what does Task Manager tell you?
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Firstly, to respond to Martin's point, my PC already has an internal SSD. If you are suggesting that I "go under the hood" of the PC to add a second, I'm afraid that is way outside of my comfort zone and would be a step too far. An external SSD via USB is therefore my only option (other from doing nothing).
David, subject to my limited knowledge in this area, I described my Task Manager findings in an earlier post (see above).
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Roger. "go under the hood" of your PC to add an internal SSD is a lot easier than you might imagine. If you have a modern PC (not a laptop) it will probably have between 2 and 8 Sata drive connectors on the motherboard. They are probably SATA 6. All you need to do is buy a relatively cheap 60-120 GB SSD and a Sata 6 cable and find room in your PC to install the SSD (might need a caddy if you have 5 1/4 " drive bays - CD/DVD size). Then it is take the side off the PC, 4 screws to screw the caddy/SSD into a drive bay and plug power and SATA cable in to the back of the SSD and the other end of the SATA cable into the motherboard. Honestly, it would take me 10 minutes and is definitely not beyond you. Then you go into disk management in Windows and format the new drive, go into On1 PR and point it at the new drive and bobs your uncle. It really isn't rocket science.
But then again, I've built my last 4 PCs from scratch so perhaps I under estimate the task but if I did it whilst you were watching I truely believe you'd wonder why you were so scared of it.
If you wanted help I'd be happy to help. All you'd need to do was undo the screws on your PC to remove the side panel and take a mobile phone shot of what you saw and I could probably tell you how easy it would be (or not).0 -
Thanks for your very kind offer Martin, but unfortunately my PC is a laptop!
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Hi Roger
Obviously I can't watch your copy of Task Manager from here. So, I can't see the spikes, which drives they are happening on, and what the activity coincides with. Only you can see the data, so unless you share it with ON1 Support, only you can make the decision.
However, if I can get PR 2020.5.1 to run really well on an elderly (2012 vintage) laptop. (And yes, both of my laptops actually meet/exceed the ON1 min specs). Then it should run well on a machine, that you say is 'new and high spec'. Provided of course, that your machine meets the minimum specification that are stated as needed to run PR.
I am very puzzled by the comments that PR 2020.1 runs faster than PR 2020.5.1. on your machine. Because I have experienced the total opposite. i.e. PR 2020.5.1 runs marginally better than PR 2020.1 on both of my laptops. In my case, I most certainly would not want to go back to the earlier versions.
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I see and agree that a SSD drive will increase IO speed and a M.2 running at the buss speed would be even faster still, just note that not all M.2 drives run on the buss some run on SATA. I had an older I5 computer that even with 2 SSD drives ON1 2020 did not work that well so sometimes it may not help. Laptop CPUs are not the same as desktop CPUs and you have to take that into consideration as well; an I5 laptop cpu is not as powerful as an I5 desktop. But with that said I had noticed my wife's newer I3 laptop ran better than my older I5 desktop.
Also something to be said is there was a person here with a monster computer for editing and he was having issues, so sometimes it may not matter ... just the unfortunate person where it won't run. I could not get Luminar to work at all on my old machine, their tech support was useless.
But there are things you can do to try and speed up your processing (at least in Windows 10).First thing I tell people is to go to the "msconfig" using the search feature and go to "boot" and then "advanced options" and there is a spot to say how many processors you have - make sure all of them are being used in there. I have heard it may only affect startup but I do it anyway. You will have to reboot for it to take affect.
Go to graphics setting under display and make the computer run in high performance when using ON1. You have to use the "choose the desktop" button and find the .exe application file for ON1 under "program files" in the C drive.
I would also right click the mouse button on an empty spot on the home screen and go into the graphics area to see if you can point the graphics to ON1 so it will use graphics acceleration - it may not work with a on chip graphics but it doesn't hurt to try.
Exclude ON1 from your virus program. I noticed that it ran slightly faster when my virus program wasn't trying to stop it, LOL!!!
Go into task manager and see what is running. unless you have a killer machine with lots of CPU, GPU and memory power having lots of stuff open will hurt you. ON1 uses a lot of CPU and GPU power and I haven't noticed it using a lot of memory recently - I don't know if it's because memory leaks have been fixed or my new computer can handle the work load quicker. Generally speaking ON1 doesn't use a lot of memory typically (I see about 1.2 Gb usually) but a machine that is running only 4 or 6 Gb could be getting bottlenecked. I have had in the past with my old computer that it would use up all my CPU and GPU and not respond, again I haven't seen that with my new one.
Layers make the photo get larger, if working on layers you may want to make a stamped layer and remove the bottom layer. I once had a 2 Gb file (typically they are about 150 Mb) with a multilayer project I was doing, I believe a stamped layer would have drastically reduced that size.
Something that was mentioned when 2020 first came out was that having the presets visible while processing makes ON1 run slower, collapse them and it could help.
There may be more tips, If needed take a look around the user to user forum.0 -
All good tips Vinny, thanks.
To add to the anti-virus software configuration, you don't want (or need) it to scan the Scratch space or the PerfectBrowseCache folders no matter where they are located. You can always schedule a scan of those locations at some time during the night when the computer isn't in use.
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Vinny said:
First thing I tell people is to go to the "msconfig" using the search feature and go to "boot" and then "advanced options" and there is a spot to say how many processors you have - make sure all of them are being used in there. I have heard it may only affect startup but I do it anyway. You will have to reboot for it to take affect.
I don't think that is necessary at all. When that checkbox is unchecked Windows uses all of your cores. I think it is a common misconception that you need to check this and select the highest number. This option is here to reduce the number of cores during boot.
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Thanks again to all for the various suggestions which I will apply where not already done.
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Just made some tweaking...
Cache moved from C (SSD drive ) to D (SSD drive ), All my photos were already in D (SSD drive).
Enabled hardware accelerated GPU scheduling on win 10 Settings> System> Display and Under “Multiple Displays” section, select “Graphics settings” Hardware-accelerated GPU scheduling.
Browse for On1 and associated with high performance selected.
My Settings on On1 preference system are showed in SShot.
Performance are slighlty better....Is there anything else that can be done?
Thanks.
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Martin,
You are probably 100% correct with what you are saying. The only thing about that is if you have a couple of processes going on when booting up that will help spread the info vs waiting to sequentially start.
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EDL,
If you don't have a powerful graphics card your graphics settings could actually hurt performance.
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EDL, you'll get an even bigger boost if you move the Scratch space and the PBC to a dedicated drive. It is still sharing an I/O connection with the data drive.
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Also, something that can be confusing is that the Cache Size setting has nothing to do with the size of the PerfectBrowseCache. The PBC will grow as large as it needs for the all the previews it generates. The Cache Size setting controls a RAM cache. I think it caches the PBC to reduce the number of I/O requests needed as you browse.
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To Vinny: I have RTX 2070 8Gb GPU.To Brian: Thanks for tips, just moved down the cahe size setting.You telling It would be better to move scratch space and the PB Cache to a dedicated SSD drive, just with ON1 Scratch space and PB Cache stored, so ...You mean strictly reserved for On1 cache and NO other file inside?!Thanks!0
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Yes. It isn't so much not having other files inside. Rather it is that you don't want any other I/O traffic going on to the drive while ON1 is running. I have my Photoshop scratch space there too because I can only be working in one or the other at any one time.
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