Photo Raw 2021 Performance
I have experienced performance issues when running Photo Raw 2020.5 on Windows 10. Despite raising support cases these were never resolved, and I have actually rolled back to 2020.1. I see from other posts that I am not alone in having these problems.
I notice that version 2021 is due to be released next month. I wondered if anybody had been a tester or beta user. If so, are you able to comment on the performance of the new version on Windows. This information would help me make a decision to upgrade, which at the moment, I see as a big risk to stability and performance.
The User Guide, does not actually say ..
".ON1 files are not required unless you want to see the edits on multiple systems."
The fact remains that the ON1 file, that sits alongside a raw file, is where the edits are stored. Delete the ON1 file and you delete your edits.
The ON1 catalogue is, (thankfully), very different from the Lightroom Catalogue.0
If I could just clarify for a minute why I blew away the .ON1 files on these six new photoes.
I had made a virtual copy of one of the photos - which seems to make a physical copy of the photo and copy the edit stack, that's it. I had cropped it and I had used the magic eraser to take a small figure out of the background.
Somehow in using the eraser or the cropping, the photo had offset within the frame, and I could not get it back to original state no matter what I did. In fact, if I remember, the photo in the main window and down in the film strip were not the same.
I deleted the .ON1 files to destroy all my edits and start over with just the .CR2 files and nothing else. But here's the crazy thing. After I exited the program, deleted the .ON1 files and re-entered the program, the photo still appeared with its offset. It didn't revert to its original state as per how I loaded it. I realized that it must have been grabbing some kind of image from the cache or the catalog, and at that point decided to get rid of the catalogue. It really wasn't helping with the speed issues in any case.0
Edits are NOT stored in Catalogs. They have nothing to do with each other. The program maintains a separate database for storing edits. When you remove the .on1 file the program updates the database and removes the edits from there as well.
If you do not use any Catalogs, and you turn off the option to use the sidecar files, where are the edits kept? If it was only in the Catalog and/or .on1 files you would not ever be able to retain any edits you make.0
Henry, creating a virtual copy does not create a physical copy, that's why they are called 'virtual'. It is just another section in the .on1 file to hold the separate set of edits. You can see this for yourself by opening an .on1 file in any text editor (not a word processor!).
Cropping and retouching do not move the image on the canvas, only the Move tool allows that. It is quite likely that you had the Move tool selected when you thought you were using the Crop tool.
It also isn't necessary to delete the .on1 file to remove the edits. You can use the command Reset All Settings under the Photo menu to return an image to its unprocessed state.0
OK, my apologies to all, as I didn't know about the other database that is used to store edits.
And thanks Brian for the clarification on catalogues.
When you reset all in Browse, does PR reset all of the edits in both the ON1 files and the other database, at the same time?0
Yes, the program keeps them in sync.
It's my opinion that the problem with lost edits happens because something happens to the .on1 file which then gets synced to the database. I don't have any evidence to support that at this time, it's just my personal opinion at this point.0
So, on the speed issues, I have made significant progress, but I'm still fine tuning because this program doesn't work to a reasonable standard on response time. I can work with it, but I want better.
On first blush, this search to the Internet every 2 to 3 seconds is a VERY significant problem. When I disabled the network card, the sudden stops and delays as I scroll through my pictures seem to disappear. Still early to be definitive about this and I'll need to do further testing. I won't be back in my office for a few days and I won't be able to test until then.
A couple of thoughts on this. Anyone who is actually using ON1 360 has nothing relevant to say about the problem. Your version of the program should be looking for the 360 site, and usually it will find it, and not go on looking every 2 seconds while you're using the program. Your program may also be smart enough to know that it has no Internet when it's not there, and go quiet. My program has Internet all the time, and just goes on looking.
Second, depending on latency (I'm in Canada) the actual effect of this problem on program behaviour could vary greatly.
Third, there is no excuse for leaving a problem of this nature. No matter the impact, this is a very serious bug. I'm really getting the feeling that ON1 is just trying to push new features out the door and doesn't care about existing customers.
Fourth, how large is the beta-site test base for major new releases? Sounds like, not very big, not very varied.0
Brian is correct!
The catalog feature is there to remember things about your photos - keywords, ratings and anything else associated with it's identity. If you don't catalog your photos you can't search them.
The edits are kept along side the photo in the same location. If you go into Windows and turn on hidden files you will see them; if you turn off hidden files you will not see them. If you move a photo that has been edited with Windows copy/cut and paste without picking up those hidden files your edits will not move with it, you can try it and see. If you move a photo inside RAW it takes those hidden files with it. Now if under Windows copy/cut and paste if you take the whole folder - everything will move because it's in that folder.
I believe anytime you touch a photo in RAW it generates a .on1 sidecar file, I'm not clear on when it generated a .xmp file.
Take a look and give what I said a try.0
The catalog or cache, since I'm not sure of the difference exactly, keeps a copy of the photo with edits applied does it not?
So if you blow away the .ON1 files, your catalog will still have the edited photo. And, further, if you undo edits or try to revert the photo, what happens if there's a bug and it doesn't rebuild the catalogue version of the photo?
Regarding the virtual photo, or version as it's called, the program physically copied the photo and added 'v1' to the file name. Somehow it also made a copy with 'copy' added to the file name. This could have been the result of me using these features for the very first time.0
I use 360º. Not the way it was designed so far except to do some testing though. I use it like a portfolio to show my photos to others on my iPad. When I finish editing a photo I'll add it to one or more Albums that are synced to 360º so I can easily show my newly edited images.
I'm also an alpha tester as well as a beta tester. I have no idea how many others have been invited to join in the testing. Kendall has posted elsewhere that if you would like to participate send an email to alpha at on1 dot com and ask. Include a sudo resume for them.0
I don't believe that 2020.5 had significant updates, have you tried going back to 2020.1? I think 360 was the update for 2020.5.
This will be the first year I haven't upgraded the program since 2018, not sure if any updates will come out for 2020 after 2021 comes out. I totally agree with you on the feature sets, it has been a gripe of mine since version 10 and they went to this platform. I actually went back to version 10 in 2017 because 2017 was horrible on my computer.0
To date my main focus in using PR has been to load my collection of slides. This was my first photo edit session, so I could well have been using the MOVE function. Very much in play mode, but I got this one photo into an irretrievable position and Reset All Setting wouldn't restore it to its original state.
So that everyone understands the problem, I had a photo in the main window with a MOVE applied. I had no edits in my edit stack. The view in the filmstrip didn't have the MOVE applied. I exited the program, deleted the .ON1 file, and on reentry, the main window Still had the MOVE applied. I'm not overly concerned as in learning mode, you're essentially throwing all kinds of crap at the program as you try things out.
It's a truism that once you know how to do things properly, you also run the program in alignment with the testbed, with how knowledgeable testers would use the program. The naive user throws all kinds of weird combinations at a program, and as a software developer I can tell you first hand how frustrating that can be. But somehow I did get things out of sync.
The mystery part to me was that deleting the .ON1 file did not get rid of the edits. I thought it might be because of a preview JPG not being rebuilt in the cache/catalogue, i.e. that PR was retrieving and out of date preview JPG, but this new information that the edit stack is stored in two places might be the issue. On top of which I'm not now sure if I got rid of the catalogue before or after doing these edits.
Incidentally, I resolved the issue by changing the folder name, which made PR think it had all new photoes and then it did start fresh as I wanted it to.0
Transforms are not reset by "Reset All".0
That is a very satisfying explanation. So, what I've learned. 1) The edit stack is also stored in the catalogue. 2) Deleting the .ON1 files does not remove the edit stack.
Based on the KISS philosophy, I will continue without catalogues for now. I'm also optimistic that the online checking bug is causing the delays that still remain in the program.
I'm sticking with ON1 because I very much like the overall design and the new user interface. I also hate renting software. I will stay on 2020.5 indefinitely and just want to see it work. I'm not a pro that needs a zillion editing features. Cropping, fix the lighting, and a few edits once in a while. I don't want to upgrade the software and the button that was in a certain spot is now somewhere else, or where there were two prompts, now there are three. So I really hope that ON1 stabilizes this release because I want to stick with it for 2-3 years.
Regarding going back to 2020.1 that does kind of scare me. I originally purchase 2019 but didn't get much chance to use it. But the 2020.5 layouts seems much better than 2019.
With the problems I've been having I did take another kick at the latest Lightroom, in spite of the dreaded rental fee. Didn't like it. Bloody thing loaded a few thousand of my photos into the cloud without asking. Then offered to sell me more cloud space. I don't want to store in the cloud. Go away. And no folder view as PR has. Please ... don't dummy the software down for the sake of people that can't get their head around Explorer and a folder structure. That says "lightweight" to me.0
I'm not sure what's going on in my web browser. I posted a lengthy reply twice and both times something got hung when I submitted my response. It's still trying to post it in another tab while I'm writing this. I think I might have found a bug in Safari.
Anyhow, your last response pretty much said what I was trying to say.
I thought I was sure, now I'm not. Thanks for testing that, I'll have to do the same. It does make sense though.
This is a known bug. I rarely use Transform so I hadn't seen that myself.0
Henry, edits are NOT stored in the Catalog. As I've explained above they are stored in their own database. If someone chooses to not use catalogs and turns off the option to save edits in the .on1 sidecar files edits would never be saved. Therefore, they must be stored elsewhere.0
Brian, thanks for the clarification.
To my mind, an internal database, the catalogue and the cache are all interchangeable in my mind.
With your help, I'm getting a clearer idea of what each is for, but I have used the term 'catalogue' to refer to everything that's not in the .ON1 file.
So now I get it. It sounds like the internal database is the key storage area for the edit stack as used by the program. The .ON1 files just ensure that the edit stack is portable, i.e. if I reference a folder with PR on a newly acquired or just a different computer, it will see the .ON1 files and load them into its internal database.
So, that raises another question. My C: drive is a conventional (actually a hybrid) drive. Adding an SSD drive for the cache, will not improve response time as far as the internal database is concerned, correct?0
Henry Slofstra, in Lightroom terms, the catalogs are similar and the ON1 cache is equivalent to the previews. While LR uses xmp files to share data with 3rd party applications, ON1 used it's own .on1 for edits and uses the xmp files for metadata like keywords and ratings.
The difference between the catalogs is that you can backup/copy and restore those in LR, you have to rebuild it for every system when using ON1. For ON1 to build a catalog, you would require both the .on1 and the .xmp files (depending).
Rebuilding a catalog in ON1 is relatively fast and a one-time operation on any given system. The preview building (cache) can take some time.
Hope this give a better idea...0
So now I get it. Yes, with the addition that using catalogs improves the program's search features. They allow you to search all photos, not just those you are currently viewing. They also allow you to view the contents of any sub-folders in your current browser view.
I'm not sure how to answer your 2nd question. Remember using scratch paper when taking math tests in school? The program's scratch space serves the same function. It is temporary storage using during editing. When you return to the Browser, or move to a new photo in the Editor, the scratch contents are saved as your edits. Because the program relies heavily on this feature moving the program's Scratch folder to a separate SSD improves the program's performance while editing as that device has its own private commuter lane through the program's I/O channels. There are multiple programs trying to access your C: drive at all times. When the scratch space is on the C: drive the program has to wait its turn with all those other programs for any scratch space I/O to be read from or written to it. By adding a dedicated SSD you've given the program its own I/O channel that no other programs can use so the I/O happens immediately, no waiting.0
I think we crossed posts, Richard and Nitin, so I think the one preceding Richard's explains where I'm at. I had been thinking catalogue and internal database were two different terms for the same thing. Problem solved.
Brian, yes, I understand the value of an SSD drive for the cache. But my question is not that. Rather, the question is - if I move the cache to an SSD drive, won't the internal database still be on my conventional C: drive? So maybe the C: drive should be SSD as well because the internal database must see very frequent updates.0
On the issue of updating bugs in past releases, I believe ON1 is ethically bound to do so. It's not right to expect that a customer will buy a newer version of the product in order to correct defects. Imagine buying a fridge or stove which has problems and being told that if you just buy the new version of that appliance the problem has been solved.
Microsoft fixed bugs in Windows 10, 8.1, 8, et cetera. At some point a previous release will become obsolete, and the company will announce 'end of support'. If I buy a program these days, I expect bugs will be corrected for at least 5 years.
And I do not like the perpetual update model that Microsoft has with Windows 10. It's terrible. The other day I had to do a reboot just before a critical customer online demo. The computer decided to do an update and did not come back for 10 minutes. Business customers that I deal with do not like change. They want to lock down their PCs and leave them, fixing only minor bugs on a controlled schedule, and critical 'at once' bugs as infrequently as possible. But Microsoft now even tries to update their server software on the fly. It's a nightmare. Used to plug in Windows Server and leave it to run for 10 years, but not anymore. Anyway, I digress. Still mad about that demo, though. And this is why I went to ON1. Buy it, stabilize it, learn it and leave it. I'm quite willing to pay for value added through online courses, videos, et cetera, which is why I'm on Extra. Not paying just to get bug fixes.0
Oops. I think it's called 'Plus' not 'Extra'.0
Henry, regarding Windows updates.
You can control them a bit and have options as to when they are installed.
You can set active hrs so Windows will not restart during those hours.
And / or You can pause updates for 7 days or longer
Or up to 35 days if you select Advanced options at the bottom of the updates screen.0
"So, on the speed issues, I have made significant progress, but I'm still fine tuning because this program doesn't work to a reasonable standard on response time. I can work with it, but I want better."
Totally agree! On1 does not work to a reasonable standard on response times.
This is my PC spec:
NVMe 970 evo plus SSD
850 evo SSD ... for ON1 cache only!
I have done every possible tuning (like a dedicated SSD for cache, optimized GPU and so on...) I did a fresh install of Win 10 on a new NVMe SSD and even dedicated the old SSD for On1 cache only! .... and On1 PR still stuttering!
IMHO, users shouldn't need all these fine tunings on a program, to make it work fine, especially on mid-to-high-end PCs.
Is anyone else having trouble posting their responses? Mine keep hanging. The browser isn't hung as I can open new windows and browse to other websites but the responses I try to post here show about 15% progress then it just stalls. Refreshing the page returns a page not found error. Very weird.
And now, back to our regular programming. 😀
I'm not sure how much help that would be Henry. The edits database and the .on1 sidecars are not updated during editing. They get updated when you finish editing an image by returning to the Browser or selecting a new photo while still in the Editor. At that point your edits are saved as shown by the Saving dialog that appears. Yes, it will be faster since the database will be on an SSD and because it will no longer be sharing the C: drives congested I/O channel but I suspect the difference would be minor. Another problem would be in identifying the database files. I do not know which files in your user space are used for them.0
This is really weird. Safari is telling me the post above is still being sent yet here it is in Firefox. Very weird. Time to reboot the machine. See you on the other side.0
EDL, you said you've moved the cache to a dedicated SSD but what about the program's Scratch space. That is what needs to be there for improved editing performance.0
Testing 1 2 30
Clearing the browser's cookies cache of the bazillion useless pieces of junk seems to have cleared it up.0
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