RAW 2021 continually crashes--Asking for my money back!
1. I'm getting the same directions over and over from tech support to uninstall and do a clean reinstall. 2021 is still unstable and crashes all the time. Tried pressing Shift while restarting 2021-opens briefly and then crashes. But that's not how this should work. I've been sending multiple logs and crash reports to tech support and get a canned reply--clean reinstall. On the other hand 2021 Portrait and Luminar work just fine with Big Sur and the photos, which are all on an external hard drive.
2.Did a clean uninstall of 2020 and 2021 and tried to reinstall it, figuring I could restore some On1 settings from the last version that worked. Now I can't use 2020 either.
3. None of the ancillary services, like showing photos in On1 Plus have value if I can't edit my photos. I chose On1 because it had better customer service than Adobe. Now, I think it was a mistake--frustration level is beyond imaginable.
Any thoughts for getting this non-functioning software to work?
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Are you keeping the Shift key pressed until you see the Delete Settings? dialog? Which options have you tried?
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Brian: shouldn't the OP go through your list of little files tucked here and there to delete them, just to make sure of a true clean install?
Myrna: don't give up yet. I have had v2021 since its release and moved to Big Sur quite quickly on ITS release. I have had no issues with stability and no crashes I can recall.
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That's possible, I wanted to find out exactly what has been done to this point before making further recommendations. I'm not sure Myrna got to this point and that may be all that is needed.
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Sorry to have butted in: I know you know what you are talking about on these matters!
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No problem, I appreciate that others want to help as well.
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Thank you to everyone who is trying to help. I've been recommending On1 for years and so the frustration is even more so.
I've once again clean uninstalled every bit of On1 that I could find--all programs applications, the preferences. I've read through the On1 logs and the Apple crash reports, but frankly, I'm not qualified to make changes in the operating system. I've also tried On1 when the Mac is in safe mode. At this point, I'm thinking I'm doing more than I should--just want to work on my photographs.
The problem with delete all settings, which worked for about a week, is that the dialog asking if you want to report, restart or ignore comes up so quickly, and once you respond, the Dialogue box for Delete All Settings disappears immediately.
I can't remember whether I installed Big Sur before or after uploading 2021.
Here are some thoughts:
..there might have been a corruption in 2020 (had some crashing problems with it that were later repaired) and 2021 incorporated them
..the external HD also contains images from Apple's Photos (but they aren't being catalogued)
..my catalogue has over 150,000 images and in the early stages most of the crashes occurred when I was moving images from one folder to another (the drive has 8 TB, and I have only about 3+ TB of images). Again, other image editing software had no problem with the size. I also deleted any images listed on the corrupted files list. I used to get the rolling beach ball and On1 struggled while "searching."
..I have 16 GB of RAM and have been checking the activity monitor and I don't go above 12 GB of use.
Please...whatever you suggest, will be warmly accepted. I'm desperate...and Stevie andCody at Tech Support keep sending the exact same message about clean reinstall.....I'm beginning to believe they aren't real people.
And ironically this personalized help was exactly why I so strongly recommended On1 instead of LR.
Thanks
Myrna
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OK, now I know where you are at. I've had the same problem where the crash report dialog conflicts with the Delete Settings? dialog. You're going to have to uninstall everything manually. The uninstaller leaves pieces of the program scattered around the file system. Once you've removed them reinstalling the program will be the same as the first time it was ever installed.
Here is the procedure I use. You are going to loose all your Catalogs and Albums but not your edits or metadata changes.
Delete the following files and folders:
- /Applications/ON1 Photo RAW 2021
- /Library/Application Support/ON1
- /Library/Frameworks/ON_____.framework
- ~/Library/Application Support/ON1
- ~/Library/Caches/com.ononesoftware.ON1PhotoRAW____ There are several of these
- ~/Library/Caches/ON1 Photo RAW 2021
- ~/Library/Preferences/com.ononesoftware.ON1______ There are several of these, one for each program module
You can remove the 2020 pieces you find as well if you want.
I can assure you that Stevie and Cody are real people. 😀
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Hello Brian and other good people who helped. You all gave me back hours daily that were spent on trying to open PR 2021.
Here's what happened over the last four days:
1. Totally wiped out all On1 software going back to 2018.
2. Reinstalled PW 2021
3. It started up! Yeah
4. While deleting duplicates and moving images to folders, it kept crashing. Not happy.
5. Using a cleaner-type software to check computer's performance and hardware (all good), deleted bits of unused or old software (just in case there was a conflict)
6. PR 2021 continued to freeze and was non-responsive
7.Deleted my catalog and re-catalogued the external drive with photos, just in case there was a conflict. (Only using 4 TB of 8 TB on the drive so plenty of room).
8. Many warnings that PR 2021 was overusing my 16 GB RAM. Closed down browser Brave and any other open software.
My Mac has 3 TB storage, 16 GB RAM, 4.2 GHZ Quad Core Intel i7 so there should be power and speed enough for PW 2021. Nothing else hangs and freezes.
Questions:
It appears that PR 2021 hogs RAM and it doesn't play with with other software that might be open. Any settings I can change to relieve the pressure on RAM?
My images reside on an external HD (Thunderbolt 3 connection so it should be super fast ) , should I move the cache or other working files from my MAC internal to that external drive?
Is it better to delete images and move them to folders directly on the drive, outside of PR 2021 and then let the catalogue update itself? I find that the software can't keep up with the changes, and it either spins the beach ball or times out.
I can't tell you how much I appreciate your excellent advice--the rage is gone!! Thanks so much.
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It appears that PR 2021 hogs RAM and it doesn't play with with other software that might be open. Any settings I can change to relieve the pressure on RAM?
While ON1 is working on creating the Catalogs and generating all the preview images for those images it is very memory and processor intensive. It will pretty much use all it can get. There is no way to control this. It's best if you have such a large catalog to create to go ahead and leave the program running without using it much until the cataloging process has finished. Once it is done the programs resource requirements drop back down to normal levels and your system's performance will return.
I run it on a 16GB MacBook Pro so your system should be able to handle things. Which Mac are you running? If it is a laptop with just the built-in Intel graphics processor it will be somewhat slower.
My images reside on an external HD (Thunderbolt 3 connection so it should be super fast ) , should I move the cache or other working files from my MAC internal to that external drive?
Here is how I have my system set up. My photos are on an external SSD; you should be good with your HD if you do the following. I have a 2nd SSD that is directly connected to a Thunderbolt 3 port that is reserved exclusively for ON1's Scratch space and the PerfectBrowseCache. The scratch space is where all your editing takes place. When you finish editing an image and move to a new one or return to the Browser the scratch space is written to the .on1 sidecar file and the internal databases get updated then the scratch space gets cleared for the new editing to be done. The PCB is where the preview images are stored whether you use catalogs or not. With catalogs all the previews get built up front. Without them they are built as you navigate to folders which have not yet had their previews generated.
The reason for having the dedicated SSD is throughput. Think of a 4 lane highway having to cross a one-way one lane bridge. All the traffic gets backed up and everyone slows down waiting their turn to cross the bridge. In this case the bridge is the I/O cable that connects the drive to the system (even the internal drive has one) — the OS swapping memory in & out as needed, whatever I/O the various background programs left running do, the program swapping different modules in & out as you do different things with the program, etc. Adding a dedicated SSD gives the program its own high-speed commuter lane across the bridge for the I/O it does the most. It no longer has to wait its turn in line with all the other I/O traffic and can zoom across the bridge as quickly as possible. The cataloging process with run quicker and you'll see a performance boost while you work.
Is it better to delete images and move them to folders directly on the drive, outside of PR 2021 and then let the catalogue update itself?
I would wait until the cataloging process has finished before moving things around. Every time something gets moved the Catalog has to be updated while it's in the middle of getting built. It complicates things.0 -
To move your Scratch space and/or PBC to another device go to Preferences > System. There are Move buttons for each.
Note that the Browse Cache section is a bit confusing. The Cache Size slider and the Empty button do not control the PBC. They control a RAM cache that is used to hold what gets read from the PBC. The PBC will occupy as much drive space as is required to hold all your previews.
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Another thing that will affect performance is any anti-virus or anti-malware software that actively scans every change to your filesystem. It introduces another I/O conflict as it wants to scan every change made to the sidecar files and the scratch space and PBC.
Configure your software to exclude those locations from active scanning. I have my Scratch SSD volume excluded along with the Pictures folder. They get scanned in my weekly system scan.
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Brian, this is off-topic, but what do you use to create the red highlights on a screenshot, as above? I have also see others use red arrows to point at something in the shot. I wasn't able to find anything useful or easy in the Preview app!
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I use the markup tools in Preview.
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Depending upon how you bring your screenshot into Preview you may have to enable the Markup Tools first.
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OK thanks. I didn't realise you could do that kind of highlighting in preview.
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For a PC solution, I downloaded a free app called ShareX and I do all of my screencaps with that.
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Hello Brian and other good folk.
I like the way you think...will get an external SSD for my scratch space and previews. Based on the 150,000 images, is there a size you'd recommend?
My main computer for working on On1 and editing images is a 27" iMac (2017) 4.2 GHZ with Quad Core i7--so it should be powerful enough.
I used a folder system for organizing my photos (along with keywords--belt and suspenders!). Is there a way I can suspend cataloging while I move photos to different folders, or delete them, and then restart cataloging when I'm done? The other night I deleted over 1600 images and moved about that many--On1 just rolled over on its back and cried "Uncle." It would be easier to do all my moving/deleting at once and then backup the catalog afterwards. I find that no only is the cataloging likely to freeze On1, it also can freeze my computer, so despite the advertisements, it really doesn't work in the background.
Brian, I am so happy you're part of this community support. You are remarkable in how you have helped not only me, but many others. I tell people you've given me back hours of my life since I don't have to continually restart On1.
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No, there is no way to temporarily turn off cataloging. It is either on or you do not have any catalogs at all.
It is up to you if you want to let the cataloging process finish before you reorganize your photos or if you want to turn off cataloging altogether, do the reorganization, then recreate the catalogs.
As for the size of your new SSD the ON1 Knowledge Base contains this article on Catalogs and Caches that may help you decide. There is a chart showing some typical space requirements for different amounts of photos and the different preview size options.
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Hello Brian
I've had a few problems, but thanks to your suggestions, I'm getting glimpses of how well and fast On1 can work. Thanks to you!
1. Good call on your part: I had several malware and anti-virus software installed. Eliminated most.
2. Stevie is a real person: the tech folks said I had a corrupted Perfect Browse cache. Deleted the file in Library and am rebuilding my catalog.
3. I have a Quad Core iMac i7. Do you know if On1 uses all 4 of my Cores, or just one while editing? I ran diagnostics with Etrecheck and it showed that On1 was using 332% of my Core. Seems impossible.
4. I'm finding something weird: if I move images from one folder to anther in Browse, and then delete the original folder, On1 defaults to the highest level folder (in this case called Photos) and then starts to search and show every single one of the 150K images!! It seems to self-select show sub-folders, which I had not checked. Of course it freezes not only On1 but my computer and I have to do a hard restart.
A related problems is that while On1 is "searching" the software freezes. I can't cancel it. Sometimes it restarts on its own; other times it is "non-responding" and I need to Force Quit. I haven't yet moved my catalog to it's own drive...it's on my internal hard drive. (and the images are on an external Thunderbolt drive connected with a TB3 cable). Any thoughts? How do I turn off cataloging while reorganizing?
5.I've been rebuilding my catalog but it's taking a long time. Do you know if cataloging goes on while the computer is in sleep mode?
I truly appreciate how much you have helped...so very much.
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3. Yes, the program will use all your cores. As for the 332%, if 4 cores are running at 80% that’s seen as 330%. You can monitor the system resources usage with the Activity Monitor program. You’ll see both cpu & gpu usage fluctuate as you do different things in the program.
4 & 5. See my previous comment. You should either let the cataloging process finish before reorganizing your images or turn it off until the reorg is finished. The two tasks are interfering with each other causing the program to have to work harder which is straining your system.
I think if it was my system I would set the preferences to move the PBC to the scratch SSD, then let the cataloging finish before trying to do anything else with the program.
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Sorry for the dumb question, Brian. How do I turn off cataloging? Looked in the places I'd expect it to be. Also when I try out a bunch of presets, is there an easy way to go back to original or one of the earlier choices, aside from History? Clicking Reset repeatedly?
I plan to move the PBC to a scratch SSD (I'll do anything you recommend!!). I'm working on cleaning up my files (photo and otherwise) and doing clean back-ups in Time Machine and online before introducing another storage device. Or perhaps I should rethink this. (I found EtreCheck shows me more detail than Activity Monitor. Or perhaps the graphics are easier to understand.)
I can't say it enough, you're the best resource when it comes to On1. Throughout all you comments to others in the On1 community, you are always right on the mark--as if you designed On1 from the get-go. Who are you?!!!
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There isn’t any on/off switch for cataloging. If you have a catalog it is on. You have to remove all catalogs to turn off its background processes.
I do not let time machine back up my scratch drive. Because it is all temporary working space and the PBC which is easily rebuilt I don’t find backing it up to be necessary.
When I’ve applied a preset and I change my mind I use the Undo command. If any edits have made after applying the preset then the History panel is usually easiest to get back to where you were before applying it.
I don’t know if etrecheck’s monitors are live, I’ll have to check that out when I get either my new M1 Mini or I can get my laptop put back together. Pro tip — don’t dump hot tea with honey on it! 😁
Since you want to get your organization straight as your highest priority do that before turning cataloging back on. You still want to move the PBC first. Get that onto the dedicated fast drive ASAP.
Thank you for your kind comments. I’ve been working with computers since I was in high school in the 70s. I’ve programmed everything from an Apple II+ to the Space Shuttle Launch Processing System. There isn’t much I haven’t done with a computer. 😁
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Just came across this topic of RAW 2021 crashing. Same here what Myrna described.
Have been using Photo RAW gladly and successfully for some years now. The 2021 version, however, is definitely getting worse and worse since last April. About then problems started (I hasten to add that no alterations whatsoever to my machine or OS were made at that time).
I had left Luminar years ago as they weren't able to solve problems with the DAM which they had introduced and advertised as huge progress to their software; in fact it ruined the structure of my whole Picture folder on my HDD.
I decided to go for ON1 for good which was recommended to me at that time by someone who was as much disappointed by Luminar as I was. With RAW 2021 I've been learning that it's presumably not better than Luminar any more. It freezes and crashes regularly and when it's running I can't quit it in the normal way. Every time I want to stop it I have force quit RAW 2021. Couple of weeks ago I did a clean uninstall (following the guidelines given on ON1's website for uninstalling meticulously). Every single trace of Photo RAW was deleted. Then a clean fresh install of the latest version. It worked like a charm again and I took courage that problems might have been solved for good - only to realize after one or two weeks: all the too well known problems reappeared.
I use a MacPro 2010 with Mojave (latest update - including all security updates released until today), dual processor (2x3,46 Ghz; 12 cores), 96 GB RAM, Radeon Graphic Card 8 GB VRAM. Usually I keep running these apps at the same time: Word, Excel, Apple Mail, Safari, Chrome, GraphicConverter, Photo RAW. The Activity Monitor regularly shows that at least 50-60% of the CPU is inactive and free memory is usually in the region of at least 20-30 GB. From this I conclude that RAW 2021 could easily grab another 20-30% without impairing the whole system. But instead of doing this it obviously decides to freeze and present me with the beachball which keeps going endlessly until I finally force quit RAW 2021. I'm afraid it's not fit for practical use any more on my machine. I have to get rid of it and unfortunately look for an alternative for the future. I've never had such severe problems with the preceding versions of PhotoRAW.
Any suggestions apart from clean uninstall und fresh re-install which I did already (to no avail in the end)? I'd be very grateful as I find the vast scope of options amazing you have with PhotoRAW. But what good is it when it's not working properly? Then there's no chance to use these marvellous options. After all I got the software to use it for my pictures not to nurse it like someone on the ICU.
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When you removed the program from your system did you also clear all if its preferences files scattered about the file system? It sounds to me as though your settings files have become corrupt and if you don't remove those files along with the software, when you reinstall the problems remain.
Have you tried resetting the program without uninstalling it? I've been running Photo RAW on Macs for quite some time now and while I do have the occasional crash it is nothing like what you are describing.
Have you tried running the program without all those background programs running? You may not be running out of RAM but there could be other conflicts. Shouldn't be but it is still worth seeing if there is any difference when running PR by itself.
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Thanks for your quick reply, Brian. Yes I removed every single item pertaining to RAW 2021 - provided the list given by ON1 themselves is exhaustive. If this is not the case (list being exhaustive) I wouldn't have a clue as to where else I might find "leftovers". Apart from that: the app worked properly for about a week or two after the fresh re-install which I assume wouldn't not have been the case if some of the pref's had not been cleared successfully. I even applied the shift key and Delete settings
I will take up the suggestion of running PhotoRAW by itself without any other program shortly.
However, it's not only the miracle of freezing or crashing repeatedly but what keeps puzzling me at the other end: Why is impossible to just quit PhotoRAW regularly on my machine like any other software? When I click "Quit" a window appears telling me: "Progress 'Shutting down'". And this windows remains (for hours on end, I tried it once after quitting all the other programs I let this shutting down process of PhotoRAW continue) until I force quit PhotoRAW.
In any case, thanks again for your quick reply.
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Do you have the latest version of 2021 (15.5.1.10782)? That used to be a problem in earlier versions but the last 2 updates have completely removed it for me. I may see it for a couple of seconds every once in a while but no more of the endless variety.
How full is your boot drive? Have you added an SSD for Photo RAW's Scratch space? I'm wondering if something is thrashing during the shutdown process.
If you followed the instructions at How to Manually Uninstall ON1 apps then your preferences files were left behind along with some other caches, frameworks, and libraries the program installs for itself. Here is the process I use after dissecting the installer to find out it does. The last line is the one clears your preferences but the Delete Settings process does essentially the same thing. The 2 above it are also missed by the company's procedure.
- /Applications/ON1 Photo RAW 20xx
- /Library/Application Support/ON1
- /Library/Frameworks/ON_____.framework
- ~/Library/Application Support/ON1 — Make sure to export all your presets first so you can import them after reinstalling
- ~/Library/Caches/com.ononesoftware.ON1PhotoRAW____ There are several of these
- ~/Library/Caches/ON1 Photo RAW 20xx
- ~/Library/Preferences/com.ononesoftware.ON1______ There are several of these one for each program module
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Last night I uninstalled RAW 2021 once again (manually) following your guidance in the process. I then did a clean re-install (of course of the latest version which I had already installed the previous time). With your list I do hope I got everything that needed to be removed.
My boot drive (which is an PCI-SSD M.2) has still got 95 GB free. I did not add a separate SSD for Photo RAW's Scratch space.
As things stand after an hour or so of using Photo RAW (while the aforementioned programs are running simultaneously) I encountered no quirks and peculiarities. I started and quit Photo RAW several times during this time. The only message appearing was "closing down the database" and then the program shut down. When I restarted it no oddities occured.
These observations apply to the last hour or so. After the previous fresh re-install I had had no problems for about 2 weeks. Then I had got into the quagmire again.
After following your valueable advice for uninstalling I do hope that this time Photo RAW will remain error-free for a much much longer period.
Thanks again, Brian, for your highly appreciated and rapid support. I do hope I can continue to use Photo RAW for the years to come.
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Sorry to report that all the efforts towards stabilisation of PhotoRAW 2021 were in vain. The program simply is not stable on my machine (cf specs above).
2 days after I applied all the remedies advised and described above it started freezing and crashing once more repeatedly and without any recognizable cause (i.e. not recognizable for me) triggering the freeze or the crash.
This 2021 version is no good as a tool to reliably work with.
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There is something happening on your machine that is causing this. We just haven't identified the cause yet. If the program itself was that inherently unstable it would be showing up for more users but it doesn't.
I have a couple more suggestions that will involve some time to work through but should show whether the software is stable on your base system or if there is something else going on.
I assume you've installed menu bar widgets and helper programs. If those are installed to just your user account you can create a new user account then log out of your main account and into the test account where that stuff won't be running. Does the program continue to crash? Do not try to reset the program or anything like that first. Leave it in the state where it is crashing on your normal user account. If it stops crashing on the test account you've identified that some other software is conflicting and the challenge will be to figure out which.
The hardcore test is to install a fresh operating system on a flash drive or external SSD. Install just the OS & Photo RAW. How does that run?
I know what a PITA this is. I went through the same processes with my MacBook Pro. It would randomly disconnect my Scratch drive immediately after I launched Photo RAW. Not every time though, usually just the first time I tried to launch it for the day and even then, not every day. I created a new boot drive as I described above. I tried swapping ports, cables, drive enclosures, the SSD drive itself and nothing helped. I couldn't even get the drive to remount until I rebooted the computer; the port was dead. When I got the M1 I'm using now the problem went away. There was something about that laptop that allowed PR to get tripped up on some edge case. Fortunately in my case, it was easy to recover and it just became an annoyance I lived with. I hope you have better luck.
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