Recent 10 Minute Questionaire on how to make ON1 PhotoRaw 2021 even better
Although I participated in the recent 10 minute survey, it felt like it had a lack of "More Comments" than I recall in past surveys.
For instance, the survey asked if we'd like to see an ability to convert to DNG format while in the program. I wouldn't mind this, however, based on reading the blogs and other information over the years, I thought dng files within ON1 were a part of the Keyword problems we suffer from. I wouldn't want something that will add to those problems.
The survey also asked about Automatic Keywording using imaging analysis. I, for one, prefer to control my own keyword list, which seems to be a part of the problem we have with the Keyword module. By that I mean, we don't seem to have the ability to limit the keywords to those we create and are most familiar with. For reasons I'm aware of with regard to the ON1 software, Keywords are added to my list all the time without my input. It's frustrating that this issue can't be resolved.
There was a question with a sliding scale that asked which would we want ON1 techs to work on...the Browse or the Edit side. With the many improvements I've seen in the newest version 2021.5, this is a great program now. However, if Browse means fixing the Keyword issue, I'm all for leaning to the Browse side to get this finally fixed.
The last issue in the survey asked if we wanted to stack groups of photos. I'm not sure where they were going with this issue. However, if they mean taking a series of photos, let's say photos 1--10, that might be used for a PANO or HDR and stacking those contributing photos under one cover photo next to the resulting HDR or PANO, or perhaps stacking them under the HDR or PANO, for organizational purposes in Browse only...I'm all for it. If they are talking about something to do with the Edit module, I'd need more information.
"Keywords are added to my list all the time without my input. It's frustrating that this issue can't be resolved." This problem can be resolved. You have to remove the unwanted keyword from the image files they have been embedded into. The trick is to find where they are coming from.
When you browse to a folder all the image files and their sidecars are scanned for any changes. When the program reads keywords which have been embedded they get added to the program's Keyword List just as they should. To not read them would make the program incompatible with keywords created in other programs and make its keywords invisible to them.
Here is my article on Fixing Keyword Issues.
I weighted the new features vs bug fixes heavier on the bug fixes side too. I left it about 70% as I know new features are what attract the necessary cash flow to pay for the bug fixes.
I think the stacking feature they asked about is for the Browser; like the stacking feature in Lightroom where you can select a set of images and group them so only one image is previewed. I find folders work just as well for that particularly in light of the new automated HDR/Pano creation feature that will automatically merge the images in a selected set of folders. I set the finished image to be the folder's preview thumbnail. You can also apply Color ratings to folders the same as you can to image files. I use that to mark which have been finished vs still being worked on.0
Thanks Brian. I like your idea for setting up a folder for the HDR/Pano. I am unfamiliar with the automated HDR/Pano creation feature. Is there a video or a place in the User Guide where this is discussed.
If I Browse to a folder are you saying all the keywords I've created and all the embedded keywords should appear on the Keyword list?
If we are able to remove the unwanted embedded keywords and keep the Keywords we've created and then Embed Metadata, are we not embedding our Keywords to our photo? If so, is this acceptable because the Keywords we create are more easily removed from the Keyword list, unlike the embedded keywords we don't create?
I've tried your technique in "Fixing Keyword Issues," but I will go back and review it again.0
There are sections in the User Guide for Batch Processing Panoramas, pg 171, and Batch Processing HDR Images, pg 175. They work the same way — you place all the bracketed HDR image or pano slices into a single folder. Once you've got everything organized properly you can select all the HDR or Pano folders and click the tool to merge them and all the folders will have their components merged separately. The downside is that you do not get to see the window with the controls for how they are merged. The default settings are applied.
I'm saying when you browse to a folder the keyword list gets updated with anything new it finds in the images and their sidecars. This means when there is an unwanted keyword that keeps reappearing simply deleting it from the Keyword List isn't sufficient. That takes it out of ON1's list but does not remove it from the image files it has been embedded into. Because it is still embedded eventually it will get read again and added back to the list.
You have to identify the individual images it has been embedded in, delete it from the image, then use the Embed Metadata command to write the change back to the file so it gets removed from there as well. Once it has been removed from all the images it had been embedded in you can the use the Keyword List's Delete Keyword… command to remove it permanently.
I'm sorry but I'm having trouble following you next to the last paragraph about removing and embedding. Hopefully, the paragraph I wrote above and your review of the other article will clear things up for you. If not, ask more questions.
FWIW, I know how difficult this can be. It took me 2 years to get it all figured out and clear up my library properly. Now that I've done it I haven't had any more problems. Personally, I like to embed my metadata into those image file types that support it, RAW files do not. I see it as a permanent backup to the DAM's database — whichever DAM one chooses to use. Think of it as your offsite backup copy. ;) Sidecars are great for inter-program sharing of the data but they can be damaged or lost. The downside is you must remember to do it and you have to manage it yourself. Maybe a Preferences option to automatically embed metadata changes would be nice and help clear up problems like this.0
With regard to the removing and embedding paragraph, I'll ask a part of it in a different way.
When we are in ON1 and we create and write Keywords to our photos, are they embedded into the photo? Yes, the following is very difficult to explain. But, here goes.
We seem to be having problems with unwanted embedded metadata in some photos. After we clear the unwanted embedded metadata we will still have attached to the photos keywords we've created. I'm having a problem understanding why we'd want to use the "embed metadata" command to embed the keywords we've created and written into our photos. Doesn't this just compound our problem? In other words, once we embed the keywords we created can we still find those photos by double clicking on the keyword from the keyword list or would we have to go through the same process to remove them as we are having to do with the unwanted embedded keywords?0
When we are in ON1 and we create and write Keywords to our photos, are they embedded into the photo? No, that is why you have to use the Embed Metadata command if you want them embedded. It's also why I suggested the possibility of adding a Preference setting to enable that for those users who want it to happen automatically. I'll have to add it to the Project page.
We seem to be having problems with unwanted embedded metadata in some photos. After we clear the unwanted embedded metadata we will still have attached to the photos keywords we've created. I'm having a problem understanding why we'd want to use the "embed metadata" command to embed the keywords we've created and written into our photos. Doesn't this just compound our problem? Yes, this is the limitation I was talking about previously. It adds to your manual maintenance chores. If you want to eliminate the problem altogether 1st remove all keywords and embed that change. Now, add back those keywords you want to use and forget about the embed command. Now the image will have keywords only in the internal database and the sidecars.
The unwanted data has to be cleared from up to 3 places, 2 of them happen automatically, 1 of them may or may not be needed and does not happen automatically. Keywords (and other metadata) is stored in 3 places — the program's internal database, the .on & .xmp sidecar files. Those happen automatically as we make our changes. It's the 3rd location that is the problem. The data may or may not be embedded too. If it is and it is unwanted it will keep returning until the changes that delete it are also embedded.
I used Bridge to track what was going on with embedded vs sidecar maintained data. It's free and it allows you to modify most of the metadata attached to a file whether it is embedded or just in sidecars.0
Is this survey just for Plus members as I never receive any?0
I don’t think so as one of the question asked was “Are you a plus member?”0
Thanks, no. I get other mailings, just no surveys. I will mail customer support.0
This is becoming more clear. However, I'm unsure of what you meant by the following. "The unwanted data has to be cleared from up to 3 places, 2 of them happen automatically, 1 of them may or may not be needed and does not happen automatically." Which two happen automatically? You also said "one of them may or may not be needed..." My question there is needed for what?
You then said, "Keywords (and other metadata) is stored in 3 places — the program's internal database, the .on & .xmp sidecar files." Just to clarify, when you said, "It's the 3rd location that is the problem. The data may or may not be embedded too. If it is and it is unwanted it will keep returning until the changes that delete it are also embedded," you are saying that the .xmp side car files may still be a problem. Is that right?
If so, you are saying that removing all keywords and embedding that change may not, or will not remove them from the .xmp side car files. Is that right?
Can you tell me more or refer me to something that would tell me how to access and use Bridge to track what is going on with embedded/sidecar data. When your modifying these files you're saying the changes are picked up in ON1 when that software is opened?
Can we assume that only photographs in a cataloged folder will have keywords that appear in the keyword list?0
The rest of the paragraph explains which are automatic and which have to be handled manually.
"Keywords (and other metadata) is stored in 3 places — the program's internal database, the .on & .xmp sidecar files. Those happen automatically as we make our changes. It's the 3rd location that is the problem. The data may or may not be embedded too. If it is and it is unwanted it will keep returning until the changes that delete it are also embedded."
The sidecar file updates happen automatically. The data embedded into the actual image file has to be done manually. That is what the Embed Metadata command is for. Whether or not a manual update is necessary or "needed" depends upon whether or not that particular image file contains any of the unwanted keywords embedded into it
If it does, making the changes in ON1 without Embedding those changes leaves those unwanted keywords embedded and ready to be found and return to the keyword list at a later date.
If the image does NOT contain any unwanted & embedded info then it is not necessary to use the embed command after making your changes.
The bottom line, IMO, is that you either embed the metadata or you don't. The problems come when there is a mix of embedded and not embedded because then you have to know which images contain embedded data and need their updates re-embedded and which do not. For me, I always use it. It keeps things simpler while providing that "off-site" backup I talked about earlier. I've even assigned my own hotkey to the command — Command-S since the program doesn't have a Save command of its own. :)
"[Y]ou are saying that the .xmp side car files may still be a problem. Is that right? and If so, you are saying that removing all keywords and embedding that change may not, or will not remove them from the .xmp side car files. Is that right?" No, that is exactly backwards. The .xmp and .on1 sidecar files are automatically updated when the metadata gets edited. It is the embedded data that you have to update yourself.
For help with using Bridge go to the Adobe web site. There are Help commands in the program that will take you there. It is far more powerful than what we are using it for here so the documentation may be overwhelming. If you take a look at the program you'll see its interface for examining the metadata is right there and pretty simple to figure out. It has a browser pane with more panels for displaying info about the selected photo.0
"Can we assume that only photographs in a cataloged folder will have keywords that appear in the keyword list?" No, the keyword list will be populated by the images in every folder you browse. Cataloging only helps in searching for images. Without a Catalog searches are limited to just the folder you are currently viewing. With a Catalog you can search that entire Catalog, all Catalogs, or just the current folder.0
Thank you very much Brian.
In the fifth paragraph of your "Fixing Keyword Issues" from eight months ago you say, "Do a Select All and you'll see that the keywords which return no results will be highlighted to show they have been used."
The phrase I'm having problems with is "keywords which return no results will be highlighted to show they have been used." This doesn't make sense. Can you clarify? What do you mean by highlighted?
The active keywords I've created have their buttons filled or half filled, as can be expected, but I see only the keyword and nothing more for those that have no images indicated next to them.
Also, given the location of this information in your Fixing Keyword Issues, it seems that after a Select All and the discovery of the keywords without a "number of images found" next to them, you can, as you said delete these non-top level keywords because they are truly unused. However, based on things you've mentioned should you do that at this point? Shouldn't it be closer to the last step after finding them in the image file, removing them, embedding the change, etc?0
When I wrote that article there were still bugs in the keyword manager code. The unwanted, supposedly deleted keywords which kept being added back into the Keyword List would not return any results when they were double-clicked. That made it very difficult to find those images the keywords came from. That is where the suggestion to use the View Sub-folder Contents option with the top level folder selected in the browser came from. When an image is selected the Keyword List will show which keywords it uses by filling the circle to the left of the keyword name. By selecting all the images, any keywords which are not being used will have unfilled circles. Those can be deleted safely with the assurance they will not come back.
Since I wrote that there have been code fixes and as far as I can tell all the bugs I mentioned or provided work arounds for in that article have been fixed. Some of my procedure may no longer be necessary but since my list is cleaned I no longer am able to test that. However, not of the steps I have laid out will cause any problems, they just may not be necessary any longer.
As for your last question about when to delete the unused keywords, it does not matter. If you are viewing all your images at once and have them all selected then you can see which keywords have been used and which have not. The point of that paragraph was to show that even though a keyword had been double-clicked and no images were returned from the search, that did not mean that keyword was actually unused. The only way to tell is the show everything and select them all before inspecting the keyword list.0
OK...this actually sounds much easier than I realized. My keywords are all caps for the top level and upper and lower case for those nested keywords. The stray words, always lower case only, are what I'm having problems with. I assumed these were embedded keywords. However, none of them show any images linked to them. I haven't tried this for several months, so I'll create a list of all of those words and delete them. If I understand you correctly, they should not reappear. Is that correct?0
Only if they are truly not being used. One of the early bugs had to do with importing hierarchical keywords. The hierarchy was not being retained and everything was showing up as a top level keyword or they would show up with the pipe character ( | ) that is used to separate the hierarchies would be appended to the front of the keyword when it was added to the list. Those would never be found because '|keyword' did not exist, only 'keyword' did.
This is where it is important to use the Show Sub-folder Contents followed by a Select All so you can ensure those nested keywords are not being used by any images. If you do find any that are used be sure to Embed Metadata after you remove it from that image so it will not come back.0
I am understanding this. Several of the keywords in my list have nothing associated with them. However, I do have several keywords I didn't create that have images. If I understand you correctly, this suggests they are embedded, and I will have to track them down using the techniques you've shared with me over the past two days.0
"I do have several keywords I didn't create that have images. If I understand you correctly, this suggests they are embedded, and I will have to track them down using the techniques you've shared with me over the past two days." Yes, it does sound like you've got it. Those are the images you'll have to find manually. Reread the section about navigating through the Catalogs list in the left hand column for the tips to minimize the pain.0
Yessss.....I'm smiling. Thanks so much. I'll get to work on this in small chunks to see if things are getting resolved. I'll join you again if I have any problems.0
Hi Brian....I got all my embedded files deleted. I can't believe it.
I have two more question with regard to the back up files I keep on an external hard drive. Will the keywords on those external hard drives re-populate ON1 if ON1 is not running at the time I open those external hard drives, or open the photo folders on those drives?
I'm essentially wanting to know if there are any precautions I need to take when I update those files. Until I can save my clean photos onto the external drives and then delete the old folders from those drives, I'm unsure if ON1 will pick up the old information on those drives.
Second question is how are the past versions of ON1 PhotoRaw interconnected? In other words, if I were to open 2019 would it show the corrections I made to the keyword list in version 2021? If it doesn't show those corrections, is it possible that the old keyword list from 2019 could repopulate version 2021?0
Congratulations, it feels like you've accomplished something, right? It did for me. :)
As long as the program is not running no changes to its data can happen. You don't have to worry about the keywords coming back as long as you don't view those backup folders inside the program.
The different versions of the program as noted by the year in their names do not interact. If you open 2019 its Keyword List will still show those old keywords you've deleted from 2021 however they should show as unused and should not get added back to 2021 unless there is a bug I'm unaware of that rewrites the sidecars. This is something I haven't done myself so I can' be sure of what might happen.0
I appreciate this information. At least I know I can update my photos to my back up hard drives. Are you involved with ON1 Support, and if not do you think they might have more information on whether the 2019 and other ON1 versions might write the old keywords back into 2021?
With regard to viewing a folder of photos through the ON1 program, I understand it is possible they may add embedded keywords to my keyword list. I suppose the worst thing that can happen is that I run a search and destroy mission on those files that are not back-up files, but are also located on my external hard drives.0
I'm not part of support, just another user like you. I don't know if they will have anything to say about that or not, sorry.
"With regard to viewing a folder of photos…" That's what I do too. My NAS backup is organized differently than my working Pictures folder so it has all my old unwanted keywords too. I fix them as needed.0
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