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Windows 10, Colorspace and exporting JPEG

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13 comments

  • Brian Lawson Community moderator

    Have you compared the settings on your system with those on your husbands? That is where I would start since you are seeing differences between the two systems. Another thing to consider is the two monitors being used to view them. Are they comparable in quality and ability to reproduce colors accurately? Do they have the same color spaces?

    Internally, Photo RAW uses the ProPhoto colorspace for editing your photos as it is the widest space. The Export process converts the colorspace to what you've chosen, sRGB in this case.

    For future reference, RAW files do not have any colorspace. They are not image files and so do not exist in any kind of a color space. That gets applied when the RAW sensor data the file contains is demosaiced (assembled) into an image that you can view and work with.

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  • Robin Neville

    Brian--

    Thanks for the quick response. I use 2 HP-LP2475w monitors (one was his when he got is LG -34UM64). We actually unhooked his monitor and hooked it to my system and it is fairly obvious that the issue is with my HPs. For the record we did have the same settings in Windows (minus calibration profiles) and in the software that we were using for the tests.

    That aside, if you have time, could you clarify some questions I have about your reply. It would help my overall understanding of my issue. I am an Olympus shooter and have my camera set to sRGB for color space. When I open the RAW file in ON1, when you look at the metadata, it does show a difference between sRGB and AdobeRGB (I was testing how that impacted my issue so I wanted both types of files.) Do you know if that impacts how ON1 assembles/displays my RAW files?

    Again thanks for your time and the information that you have already provided. 

    Robin

     

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  • Brian Lawson Community moderator

    Your camera setting for colorspace is for the jpeg it creates for the preview embedded into the RAW file.

    A RAW file contains the raw data recorded by the camera's sensor. Unlike a pixel on a display which projects red, green, and blue light, each pixel on the sensor can record only one color of light—R, G, or B. There is a filter with a mosaic of those colors which lays over the sensor's pixels. This is where the term demosaic comes from. For each pixel sensor pixel to be converted into a display pixel it has to take into account the surrounding pixel colors and intensities to interpolate an RGB value for that pixel location.

    Because the RAW file doesn't have actual RGB values for each pixel it doesn't fall into any specific colorspace. During the demosaic process the software, whether on the camera or in your RAW processing software, the colorspace gets assigned according to your preferences. What you see in ON1's metadata is the camera setting used to create the preview jpeg and finished jpg if you have your camera set to create one.

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  • Brian Lawson Community moderator

    Since identical monitors are displaying the same problem on just your computer the next thing to look for is differences in their hardware.

    • What kind of video cards are in each computer?
    • How are the monitors connected to the computers on each system?
    • If the monitors are connected the same way are they using the same kind of cables?
    • Does the problem move with the cables if they are switched between systems?

    What we are trying to do is isolate where the color shift is happening so we can address it properly.

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  • Brian Lawson Community moderator

    You mentioned a calibrated monitor so I'm assuming both monitors have been properly profiled and the correct profiles are being used by the OS on each system?

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  • David Kick

    Robin - Technically the white balance set in the camera does not impact the raw file either. That said the WB info is stored as part to the raw file info and is used when raw editing programs display the initial preview the display.

    Here is a pretty good article on the entire subject.

    RAW Files, Sensor Native Color Space and In-Camera Processing - Capture School

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  • Brian Lawson Community moderator

    The differences you see between photos on your camera taken with sRGB vs RGB are due to RGB being a wider color space. A wider color space can reproduce more colors and so in general provides more data to work with when editing your photo. ProPhoto is an even wider colorspace than RGB which is why it is what Photo RAW uses internally.

    Photo RAW allows you to preview what the photo will look like in different color spaces with the Enable Soft Proofing command and Profiles sub-menu. With soft proofing enabled you can view the photo in different color spaces to see how the colors shift from one space to another. You can also have it display those colors which fall outside of the chosen color space with the Gamut Warning command. See page 111 in the User Guide for more info.

    When a color used in an image falls outside the chosen colorspace it gets moved to a place inside that space which causes the colors to shift and that can cause banding in the sky and other artifacts like that. In the graph below you can see the difference between the sizes of the Adobe RGB (1998) (shaded) vs sRGB (full color) color spaces.

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  • Robin Neville

    Brian/David thanks for the lessons and links. One of my first detailed posts here and feel like I have gotten useful and helpful information. 

    Brian- Not sure if I clarified properly but both of my HP monitors exhibit the same behavior. I used one of my existing monitor DisplayPort cables and hooked up my husbands LG monitor to my system and the problem did not present itself on my computer hooked to his monitor with the cables that I had been using. That is why I think there is something odd/up with my HPs. I looked up some technical specs and found that these are TFT monitors with HP Vivid Color support (102% color gamut). Is it possible that it is trying to push beyond sRGB and that is what is making a difference?

    To be honest, he got his LG because he had difficulty getting accurate color exported out for his movie and shorts productions. 

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  • Brian Lawson Community moderator

    Is it possible that it is trying to push beyond sRGB and that is what is making a difference? No, having a wider colorspace for your monitor means that it is capable of displaying more colors than those smaller colorspaces can handle. That's a good thing.

    Because the same monitor and cable did not present the problem on your husband's computer that means what ever is causing the differences lies behind the cable and the next item in that chain is the video card. What kind of video cards are installed in each system?

    One thing you should be aware of is that identical monitors connected to identical computers which have not been properly profiled will show differences in color. The chemistry used to create the LEDs in each screen is going to be different from one manufacturing run to the next, temperatures in their creation won't be identical, etc. This introduces differences between the LEDs which translates into different colors being generated even though everything else is identical. With properly profiled monitors those differences should be minimized.

    The same thing goes with the video cards, even though they are in identical computers the temperatures inside each system will be different and that along with other quantum mechanical effects results in the video card sending different signals to their monitors which once again translates to different colors being generated.

    I subscribe to a YouTube channel called ArtIsRight. Art Suwansang is an evangelicalist for BenQ and he discusses color management and issues like I've describe above in his videos. He also covers X-rite's profiling software so you might find some of his videos useful.

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  • David Kick

    Brian, I have a Benq monitor and love it.  This is a very interesting discussion. Every time I see a discussion on  this subject it does dishearten me a bit. The reason being that individual A spends time calibrating their monitor and editing their photo to get what they think is the perfect color etc... and then they post said photo somewhere and who knows how the rest of the world sees that image because the monitors they use are way off on color or brightness etc.

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  • Brian Lawson Community moderator

    All we can do is work to what we think is right and make it as accessible as possible (which is why we export to sRGB in the first place) and hope for the best.

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  • Robin Neville

    Because the same monitor and cable did not present the problem on your husband's computer that means what ever is causing the differences lies behind the cable and the next item in that chain is the video card. What kind of video cards are installed in each system?

    Sorry if I was unclear but I did NOT hook my monitor to my husbands computer, but the the exact opposite. I hooked my husbands monitor to my computer. When I do that everything looks fine. That is why I think that it is my monitor. I do not think it is a calibration issue because I am pulling up image.jpg in ON1 and in Irfanview/Workspace on the same monitor side by side. Should all be the same image so you would think that they would look the same. They do on MY computer when I have my husband's monitor attached. That is why I think it is my monitor. Does that make more sense?

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  • Brian Lawson Community moderator

    Yes, that does make sense. I misunderstood and thought you had swapped the monitors between the systems.

    How old is that monitor? They do age and loose their ability to maintain good color representation over time.

    What software and hardware are you using to profile your monitor? The X-rite i1Profiler software has a function where it compares the profile created with the ideal it wants to create and keeps that as a history so you can track the monitor's performance over time.

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