Confused about the ON1 Professional Plugin Bundle 2022 in pre-order announcement
I just had a look at the scope of the pre-order offer.
On the one hand, I am a little confused about the statement "Plugins no longer included in Photo RAW 2022". But I can still use the functionalities in Photo Raw 2022, right?
I have only used Photo Raw 2020 and 2021 so far anyway, so I didn't attach any importance to the standalones.
Or will there also be things/functionalities in this "Professional Plugin Bundle" that are not included in Photo Raw?
And secondly, the landing page says something about 1 year ON1 Plus membership at the top, but nothing more at the bottom. This should then simply extend my active membership?
How do you see this?
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Hello Andreas,
No functionality is being removed from the Photo RAW program. In fact it will be expanded with the new features the company has been previewing for us this past week.
Right now when you install PR it comes with plug-ins that can be installed in other software. That does not include the stand-alone versions of those pieces of software because we already have that built into the program. Those plug-ins will not longer come with the program. Instead, if you want any particular plug-in you can purchase it by itself and it will include that module from the PR program as a stand-alone program. Now, users who own Photoshop and want the Resize plug-in can buy that plug-in by itself and it will come with the stand-alone version of that module along with the plug-in.
Plus is a separate thing from the software. It gives you access to more video training and the Plus Forums where the company is more involved with talking to the posters. The subscription is separate from any software you might purchase. The Upgrade, with or without the plug-in bundle, does not include the Plus subscription. You'll have to renew that whether you choose to upgrade or not.
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I am also a bit confused.
If I understand correctly all of the features of the applications in the Professional Plugin Series are part of On1 Photo Raw 2022. They do not need to be purchased separately. However without the plugin bundle you would not be able to use those individual plugins in other applications outside of on1 photo raw correct?
To phrase it differently is all the plugin bundle does is allow you to use some ON1 photo raw features as plugin in other products correct?
I am confused as plugin support is also a new feature of ON1 Photo Raw 2022.
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Kyle, your understanding is the same as mine. I haven't seen the email myself; it was sent to just a select few users.
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More confusion, I can't seem to get a straight answer from support. So, as a user since 8.5, if I buy the reasonably priced update at 79.00 they disable the "plugins" which I already have, such as Effects, Portrait, Resize etc. What do I actually get??
If I want to spend 149.00 for an update, it still only runs a Stand-Alone product and they pulled the ability to use as a plugin with LR/PS?
Let's make this simple, I currently own 2021 PhotoRaw full suite. If I buy the 2022 79$ update what will I have? or not have? ;)
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I am interested in knowing as I have an active annual subscription with the 20GB online plan will I have access to the ON1 Photo Raw 2022 stand alone at no extra cost, also how about the autumn bonus? I am also an ON Plus 1 member.
Advance thanks for a reply.
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Bill, your first mistake is to ask tech support about the marketing stuff. Kahlie in Customer Service is the person who can better answer questions like this.
No, the plug-ins you currently own are not being disabled in any manner. The only change is that the plug-in files that get installed in other software are no longer part of Photo RAW. If you want the features offered by the new plug-ins you will have to purchase them. Getting them bundled with the 2022 Upgrade is probably your best bet. The only question left is do you want to purchase the Upgrade and own it outright, or would you prefer to pay for the subscription model and get future versions for free as long as you maintain the subscription. The downside there is when you end the subscription all the software stops working.
James, as a subscriber you will receive Photo RAW 2022 at no additional cost. I do not know about the Autumn Bonus. As far as I know, that is an incentive to get people to pre-order 2022 and is only available to them. Again, Kahlie is the person who can better answer these kinds of questions.
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Thank you Brian. I think I'm confused by semantics. Here is my definitions that I am going by.'
1. Plug in. To me in my work flow a plugin is software that "plugs into" LR that generates a file when I click "Edit in" . Currently this is the only way I use ON1. ... and my gosh it has been before 2021 buggy and full of un documented features. But since 2021 it works great.
2. The additional feature I use in On1 like Browse, Portrait, Effect, Develop etc, I call those ON1 Modules.
So, and please bear with me, as you are well known for your patience, :) If I buy the upgrade currently priced at $79.00 I can continue to use the ON1 modules within ON1 Raw, but don't get the updated and newer ones? However I can not use the "Edit In" feature in LR to launch ON1 or any of its modules ... am I close?
The $149.00 upgrade gives me all the new Modules including No Noise and all the "AI" technology, but the abiltity to "Edit in" LR is not available and will no longer be available? Both of these let me conintue to use the software on my local machine "forever" even if I decide not to buy future updates?
The subscription gives me everything the $149.00 upgrade gives me, except if I end the subscription the software will not be available to me.
So another question that is more technical does the 2022 version, no matter what way I get it, require a online connection to verify? Reason I ask, I do a lot of field work with my laptop, in areas that there are no connections available. Thanks again, Brian for taking time to answer questions in this forum.
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I agree with your definitions.
If I buy the upgrade currently priced at $79.00 I can continue to use the ON1 modules within ON1 Raw, but don't get the updated and newer ones?
Yes, you can continue to use the ON1 modules within Photo RAW 2022. However, you will receive the new NoNoise AI module but not it's plug-in nor its stand-alone application. You will not be able to call them from another program.
However I can not use the "Edit In" feature in LR to launch ON1 or any of its modules ... am I close?
Yes. If you want to continue to make use of the new 2022 version of the modules you will need to purchase the plug-ins which will now call their own applications instead of the corresponding module inside PR.
The $149.00 upgrade gives me all the new Modules including No Noise and all the "AI" technology, but the abiltity to "Edit in" LR is not available and will no longer be available? Both of these let me conintue to use the software on my local machine "forever" even if I decide not to buy future updates?
Here you've got a mix of true and false. Yes, you will get all the modules as stand-alone apps. However, you will still be able to call them (Edit In) from other programs—Ps, Lr, Capture One, etc. Yes, you also receive a permanent license for the Photo RAW 2022 application which also contains those same modules.
The Professional Plugin Bundle will give you what you want. You will retain your current workflow to start in Lightroom and call the individual modules as needed through their plug-ins. However, right now the Photo RAW 2022 Ultimate Upgrade (no Plus) is the same price. Consider the permanent license to Photo RAW a free gift you can choose to use or not.
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Can I double check this, please? Are we saying, if I remove existing plugins from Lightroom and perform ON1 upgrade for £79, I will no longer have the ability to invoke ON1 or any part of ON1 from Lightroom (using "Edit in" or "Plugin Extras")?
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That is correct.
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Hi Brian, thanks for your help, I ordered the Professional Plugin Bundle ,mostly because of your explanations and willing to help explain this all. Thanks for your time.
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I'm glad I could help Bill.
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I want to preface this comment by saying that I'm a big fan of PR, and have been for years. Just my 2 cents here (and maybe some will agree): First, charging 80% of the full purchase price every year for upgrades is excessive. It shows little appreciation for your loyal, long-time customers. We're essentially forced to re-purchase the whole program, just to upgrade a few features. (Yeah, I know - some upgrades are more substantial than others. Upgrade prices should reflect that, accordingly.) Second, charging extra for plug-ins looks like nothing more than another money grab. Most programs - PR included - have historically made plug-in capability part of the product feature set. Doubling the price of the upgrade just to add plug-in functionality is pretty insulting. Where do you stop, in terms of breaking out features and making them optional extras? Finally, if a new policy confuses the heck out of your user base, as this thread shows, that's a sure sign you're going somewhere that you probably shouldn't.
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I have to agree with BJ Denenberg. It becomes a very expensive endeavor to access PR from LR as I have in the past. I use the File>Plugin Extras access and always choose Effects as my choice because it took me to the full PR program where I could choose other modules as needed. Now, to do the same editing which may include using 2 or 3 modules, I have to start in LR, choose one, go back to LR, choose the next module, go back to LR and choose the next module . . . And as he pointed out, I've already paid for those modules by purchasing PR 2022 but I have to pay again just to access from LR. And I also have to agree that if this new policy is so confusing which it certainly seems to be following the remarks in this thread, it does seem that you've gone in the wrong direction. I am a big fan of PR and have owned it and its predecessors for many years and I am really disappointed with this decision.
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Kathleen, check this out...
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Thank you Rick. That work around does seem to do the trick but I still think it has us jumping through hoops. I will use it and hope that On1 reconsiders their decision and goes back to the method that we used up to 2021.
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I saw the video Rick recommended, and the plugin workaround (that sadly shouldn't be necessary in the first place). I was surprised to see Anthony Morganti demonstrate how the sky replacement feature seemed to have a hard time with buildings, while working well with more complex shapes, like trees, etc. https://youtu.be/v1NWmP5a5bA?t=355 Wow, how did that happen? Meanwhile, no official response to my earlier comment. That often means they might be having some trouble coming up with a valid counterpoint. ;-) A lot of people are complaining now about Skylum's Luminar business model, because they seem to dump last year's product, and just launch a whole new one, instead of upgrading. While that might be true, they at least make the "new" version available at a steep discount to current customers. I'm not sure which model is worse, but I still stand by my statement that charging 80% of the full price for some new or upgraded features is a bit extreme, year after year. (If I'm wrong, and someone can tell me why, I'll happily admit it). The added plugin fees just add more insult to injury.
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You won't get any official response here BJ. The company does not respond here. These forums are meant for their users to talk with each other.
AI's have to be trained and you do that by feeding them large numbers of photos containing what you want them to learn about. I suspect that the AI they created for finding skies was trained primarily with photos of landscapes and their horizons so it fails when it is given a photo that strays from what it was trained to recognize. They further from its training material the poorer its results will be.
There's been plenty of commentary about this online as you've noted, I'm sure the company is paying attention. This is my opinion but I expect they will be working on this and training their AI engine to recognize more diverse types of sky boundaries.
The decision to separate the plug-ins from the application was driven by user feedback. The company sends out surveys a couple of times per year where they collect data on how we use the program, how important different parts and services to us, and what we'd like to see changed. They found that the majority of their users fall into one of two camps. There are those who use the program without any of its plug-ins as they have no use for them because they don't own the programs the pug-ins require. There are those who use other programs and only want to use Photo RAW modules via the plug-ins; they do not use the Photo RAW program itself. This is why they broke things apart. Unfortunately, it seems you fall into the minority that wants to use both but they covered that too with the bundles. Now we only have to pay for the pieces we actually need and use.
As for "some new or upgraded" features this is a major overhaul of the program. There is far more than just some stuff they've done. They deserve and require to be paid for their work so they can continue to improve the program for us. You might want to check out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFkoJTbHdbY to see what all is in this release.
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Thanks for the clarification about official responses here, Brian. And thanks for your addressing some of the items that I brought up.
Regarding the AI Sky issue, this was the first I'd heard of the problem, and I was surprised because it seems they would have trained the AI for something as commonplace as buildings in images. In addition, it should be much easier to train the AI to work around a rectangle, for example, rather than a complex network of tree branches. I'm sure they'll address it in an update soon enough.
I'm not sure how you know the behind the scenes decision making processes for changes to their business model, but I'll take your word for it, and respect your viewpoint. I don't really understand how we now only have to pay for the pieces we actually need and use. Can you break that down for us, please? I admit that I'm confused here, but apparently, I'm not alone. I can't help but wonder why, if it wasn't broke, they needed to "fix" it this way, other than to increase profit.
As I mentioned before, I acknowledge that some upgrades involve more than a few new features. Some do not. The ones that do not still cost the same as the ones that do. If they don't modify or improve 80% of the existing product, it's kind of unfair to charge 80% of the price of the full product, wouldn't you agree? After 15 years in IT, believe me, I know how hard developers work. I also understand the difference between upgrading software and creating a new program. Yes, developers deserve to be paid well for their work. Just not a second, third, and fourth time for what they wrote the first time. ;-) That's my gripe, in a nutshell. If you improved the browser functionality, don't charge me for the whole browser module I already paid for several times.
Thanks for listening, and enjoy the rest of your weekend!
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The subject does not necessarily figure in to how long it takes to train the AI. It is the number of photos you feed it along with the fine tuning that's needed to keep it from becoming overly sensitive and rejecting everything that isn't an exact match. I took a class on making them last year, it was quite interesting to learn how they work and what is involved in creating one. They do need to give it more buildings and skyline type images to get it better trained.
I'm sure profit figures into the decision to do things this way now, how much of a factor it was I don't know. I do know they listen to their user's feedback. Do you know about the ON1 Photo RAW Project? The company gets some of their ideas about new features and changes to existing ones from there. It is all driven by user feedback and votes for the ideas other users have posted. I know about the decision making process because the company has told us. Do you read the Blog they post on a regular basis? I'm also a Plus member where the company is more participatory on the Plus Forums. I receive their feedback surveys whenever they are sent out. I'm not sure everyone gets those or how it is decided to whom they are sent but I do know being a Plus member provides those types of 'benefits'. I also have a somewhat limited amount of direct access to the company because of my membership in the testing team.
Have a good weekend too, thanks.
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I suspect that the change has been driven more from a technical perspective than a change of business model but that has not been clearly communicated.
The plugin files that are loaded into Photoshop etc are just small programs that handle sending the image data to an external application and then receiving the modified image back. All the hard work is done by the application running outside of Photoshop. In some cases the plugin program tells the external application to start up in a particular mode.
Up until PhotoRAW 2022 there has just been the one application that can run in both standalone and plugin mode. Having an application working in this way makes it more complicated since it needs extra code to make it look and behave in different ways depending on which mode it is running in. For example in standalone mode clicking Done deals with updating the database, writing sidecar files and returning to the Browse module with an updated Preview for the image, but in standalone Mode it doesn't update anything but instead does a full render of the modified image and passes this back to Photoshop etc.
Using a full application to run as a plugin that is just performs one of its functions, for example Effects, still comes with the overhead of loading the full application. If you call Effects 2021 as a plugin from Photoshop and look at what processes are running you will just see PhotoRAW 2021, not a separate Effects process.
What I think On1 decided on the basis of surveys showing that the majority of their users either used the full application as the centre of their workflow or used parts of it as plugins from other applications was to simplify things by
- stripping out all the dual purpose code from PhotoRAW 2022 so that it just runs as a standalone all-in one editing environment making it easier to maintain and enhance.
- maintain the ability to call PhotoRAW 2022 in edit single image mode so that it can continue to be used as an external editor from Lightroom and other DAMs, albeit with some changes as a result of the above simplification
- package each of the components called as plugins as separate modules that can be run either as a plugin or standalone. Each of these are now smaller and self-contained and so less of an overhead to load them when calling them and allowing them to be updated individually
These changes mean that anyone who just uses On1 as their main post-processing application now have one that is not complicated by having to also be run as a plugin from applications that may well not have.
Those people who only use On1 functions as plugins from other applications will soon be able to buy a set of plugins that provide the same sort of functions as using PhotoRAW 2021 as plugins (The 2022 plugin set has not been announced so I am not sure exactly what they will cover). Plugin only users will have no need to buy the full PhotoRAW 2022 unless they need to use it from another DAM/RAW development environment, in which case they may not need the actual plugin package.
It is the last item that I wish On1 had made clearer much earlier in the proceedings.
Please note I have no special connection with On1 other than being added to the pre-release group about a week before the official release. All the above is based on the information that has been made available on their Blog etc plus guesswork that is informed by a professional life spent providing computer services in a major UK university.
If my theories are correct then the technical reasoning behind the changes make perfect sense but On1 have completely messed up how they have packaged and priced the options, and how they have explained it to users. Hence all the confusion and anger that has been generated.
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