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Database issue??

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29 comments

  • Steven Kurzrok

    there are both .xmp and .on1 files for my edited files but on1 does not appear to be reading any of them. The edit flags in the lower right corner is gone from my edited images

    Steve

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  • Brian Lawson Community moderator

    Try moving the photos with their .on1 & .xmp sidecar files to another folder. I do this outside of Photo RAW then in the Browser I move them back to their original location. This causes the program to reread the sidecars and recover the edits.

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  • Steven Kurzrok

    One more bit of info- I booted up 2020 and 2021 - same issue on each - seems to point to to some sort of database or cache issue, I'm guessing- Any thoughts??

     

    Steve

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  • Steven Kurzrok

    It seems more extensive than that. ALL of my on1 edits going back years are not seen. Could my cach be corrupted. Reinstall or reset?

    Steve

     

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  • Brian Lawson Community moderator

    No. Just move the photos as I’ve explained. I just went through this about 20 minutes ago. As long as the edits are still in the .on1 file they will be recovered simply by moving them to a new folder si the program is forced to reread them and put them back into the internal database. 

    You can look at the .ON1 file in a text editor to see if the edits are still in them. You’ll see the metadata in plain text and the edits will show as a large block of gibberish. 

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  • Steven Kurzrok

    It works as you said. This affects my entire collection going back to 2018. It would be very tedious to move them all. Is there any way to force a reread of the entire collection?

    I spoke to you yesterday about catalogs (before this occured). I havent cataloged but did just catalog a single folder just now and this seems to have restored the edits on this single folder. I would prefer to restore the edits before I catalog, but might this be another way. Is the cache corrupted and is a reset something to think about or is that a cure for another problem?

     

    Steve

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  • Brian Lawson Community moderator

    I keep my entire Pictures folder cataloged so I didn't know that cataloging one would also recover the edits. I would try that first or if you prefer to not use them you could put a new temp folder under the top level pictures folder then move your entire library to it. They don't actually get moved you know, what happens is the filesystem info about where they are stored gets updated so it shouldn't take long to move them there and back.

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  • Rick Sammartino Community moderator

    Brian, I've never had to do this procedure of moving files, but I was wondering if instead you simply renamed a top level cataloged folder which would take it and everything below it out of the catalog, then named it back again, if that would accomplish the same thing without actually moving anything.

    When I have time later, I'll set up a mini catalog and test what happens when renaming the top and second level folders.

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  • Brian Lawson Community moderator

    I don't remember if I've tried that or not Rick. I'll give it a try the next time I need to recover edits. Lately, that's pretty much been every folder I've looked at where I've made edits in the past but haven't visited for some time.

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  • Brian Lawson Community moderator

    Yes, just renaming the folder will recover missing edits. Thanks, don't know why I didn't think of that. 😁

    That means we should be able to rename the top level parent folder for our photos and recover them all at once. My test had sub-folders and all missing edits were recovered.

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  • Rick Sammartino Community moderator

    Cool, glad that works.

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  • Rick Sammartino Community moderator

    Ok, not so fast.

    I only did one test so far and renaming the top level dumps that catalog in On1. Naming back again didn't restore it and I had to recreate the catalog.

    Doing the same to a second level folder, since it is still in the path, just changed the name in On1 without anything being removed, but is it enough to restore files?

    I don't recommend changing the top level catalog folder. It could cause even more problems.

     

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  • Brian Lawson Community moderator

    In that case I would put a temp folder in the top level folder and move everything else to it. That way the catalog doesn't get broken.

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  • Brian Lawson Community moderator

    Or, just walk through each 1st level child sub-folder and rename them then rename them back. Folder A -> Folder A1 -> Folder A.

    I've assigned Control-Shift-R to the Rename command to make it easier to rename items.

    If you keep the mouse pointer over the left side column you can use the arrow keys to help move through the folders and speed things along.

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  • Steven Kurzrok

    Frankly, I astonished at the above. If both of you, both experienced On1 users are frequently having this problem then it represents a core issue which is likely a major issue for thousands of others.

    Brian's comment is surprising, to say the least:

    "I don't remember if I've tried that or not Rick. I'll give it a try the next time I need to recover edits. Lately, that's pretty much been every folder I've looked at where I've made edits in the past but haven't visited for some time"

    I suspect his represents a significant issue with either the database or the cache or their implementation. Imagine the unsophisticated user, faced with the apparent loss of their edits. Many dont know how to move or rename a folder, nor should they have to. Yes the data is there, but to the user the loss apprears real and to many users it is real and very frustrating. 

    I am going to refer this to On1 and hope they will deal with this expeditiously.

    Steve

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  • Brian Lawson Community moderator

    I've suspected the same thing for a while. Reporting it to support is all we can do and the more of us who do it the more seriously it will be taken.

    I would include the link to this topic in my report to support.

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  • Steven Kurzrok

    I was startled bu the message thread. I thought my experience was unusual but the fact that both of you have faced this and frequently set off alarms. This appears to represent a  major programming issue  with On1  with either the database or the cache handler.

    I submitted the following to the Zen desk:

    Relatively sophisticated user and techie.  I recently booted up 2022 and found to my dismay the apparent loss of all my edits. The xmp and .on1 files were all there and intact but the system was not seeing them. I had a similar problem with 2021 a year ago.

    I posted to the Community forum looking for a fix and found to my surprise that both community moderators (Rick-Sammartino and Brian Lawson) not only had this problem, but frequently!

    We found a couple of temporariy fixes but not a solution. I believe this is a substantial bug/programming error which needs to be addressed quickly.

    Please contact me if you need further  info.

    The link to our message thread is here:

    https://on1help.zendesk.com/hc/en-u/community/posts/4412938394765-Database-issue-?page=1#community_comment_4412987482637

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  • Steven Kurzrok

    Response from ZenDesk

     

    Cody Armstrong (ON1)

    Nov 8, 2021, 8:09 PST

    Hello,

    Thank you for contacting ON1 Support.

    Thank you for reporting this.

    After consulting with our QA team they have indeed deemed this to be a bug in the software.

    They have written up a report and sent it to our development team so that they can begin working on a patch or update to resolve this.

    As soon as that patch or update is available for download we will let you know.

    Please let us know if we can be of further assistance.

    Regards,

    Cody | On1 Technical Support

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  • Jerry Hall

    Do a forum search for "lost edits".

    You will find that problems such as this go back years, as Brian can attest.  I too lost all my edits and tired of talking to support about a chronic issue.  I believe it is a fundamental flaw in the architecture and one that apparently is persistent and difficult to diagnose and fix.

    I reluctantly gave up 18 months ago on using ON1 for digital asset management and went to Adobe Bridge, ACR and PS with occasional use of ON1 software as a plug in.  Big Adobe learning curve and regrets about losing all my edits but reasonably happy now.  Too bad because you can't beat ON1's comprehensive features and integrated user interface and ease of use.  

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  • Steven Kurzrok

    Lost my edits again and changing a directory name didnt bring them back. Love On1 and features but not able to accept this. No word when a fix will be available. Will begin looking at alternatives.

    Steve

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  • Brian Lawson Community moderator

    Do you have any backups you can use to restore the .on1 files to recover the lost edits?

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  • Jerry Hall

    On a constructive note I found a way to restore one of my March 2020 long lost edits on an attached SSD!    

    When I was having all the these problems, and at a suggestion from a moderator tried Adobe Bridge (free) and then evolved to $10 monthly Adobe Camera RAW and Photoshop.  The learning curve was huge and I was cursing Adobe out of one side of my mouth and ON1 out of the other.  

    But I held out hope for ON1 and saved a few "corrupted" ON1 edits on my auxiliary SSD (which I thought had been the root of my 2020 problems.)  Every so often I checked a saved ON1 file to see if new releases of ON1 could bring lost edits back to life.  But no luck thru the last 2021 release.

    BUT today because of this thread I used Adobe Bridge to "Open With "ON1 2021" one of my an old ON1 edits.  It rose from the dead!  Couldn't believe it.  A religious experience for sure. Checked it twice.  Then opened ON1 as standalone and it didn't show the dead-its.

    So FWIW, this suggests that since Adobe's "Finder" works then likely the ON1 Browse is flawed somehow.  

    I would never use the Bridge "Open With" workflow for continuous work with ON1 unless I could come up with a keystroke shortcut to Open With directly from an image in Bridge.  Doable I guess.

    But I am so invested in ACR with its wonderful new masking (sky, subject, color and luminance masking and inverting and easy add and subtract) as well as occasional trips to Photoshop for layer work,  So I am ON-likely to return, but you never know.  My recent trip to ON1 reminded me of why I liked it so much.

    I hope against hope that this finding helps in some way.

    Steven, Brian, maybe you could give Bridge a try to see if you get similar results?

    Mac https://adobe-bridge-cc.en.softonic.com/mac

    Windows https://www.autotechint.com/adobe-bridge

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  • Brian Lawson Community moderator

    Jerry, that is because the .on1 file still contained the edits info. PR wasn't scanning that .on1 file for some reason when you were running it by itself. Renaming the folder or moving the associated image file to a new location should have forced the program to rescan the file and recover the missing edits.

    The .on1 files are basically text files with the editing info stored as a binary 'blob'. Yes, that is the technical name for them. 😀 It is easy to tell if the edits are still there by opening it in a text editor. If you do not see a bunch of random looking gibberish the edits are gone and not recoverable by any means.

    I've been wondering if the migration process might be involved in the loss of edits. If we spot them quickly enough (I have no idea what that means) we are able to recover them by the various means described. However, eventually the .on1 file gets updated without the edits and they are gone permanently. Or, the migration itself is removing them.

    I will test this with the next update by making a backup of my Pictures folder to one of the drives I've got lying around. One that is separate from my normal backup routines. If I find new images that have lost their edits permanently I can then check that against the stand-alone backup to see if they still exist there. If so I think we'd have an answer and a direction for the engineers to look.

    Edit: I do use Bridge now for a double-check on issues with keywords.

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  • Jerry Hall

    Brian,  

    Thanks for hanging in there on this.  I think you have educated me that we are discussing two issues here:  Empty .on1 files (lost edits) v. Browse not delivering to Develop .on1 files  with the associated RAW files (lost connections.)

    It is the latter issue that I experienced and seems like what Steven is experiencing..

    We have been around this bush so many times.  You have put a lot of time in it.  My "lost connections" always had text gibberish, i.e. the unconnected .on1 file was not empty.  I sent copies to support. No adverse findings that I know of.

    If 'Bridge, Open In ON1" can shake hands with ON1 Develop successfully (ie deliver .on1 file and the associated raw file) and ON1 Browse can't then might that observation lead to a solution?  Maybe there is a need to rewrite Browse using current Finder/Explorer tools as a foundation which is what I think Bridge does.  But I am way over my head here......

    This lingering unresolved issue, with months of communication with Support,  and no acknowledgment of the problem, is why I lost faith in ON1.  As was reportedly said by Ansel Adams  "if you don't have a reliable DAM, with backup and restore tools you ain't got nuttin."

    I will try to restrain my griping on this issue in the future...Or maybe just take away my forum access so I don't get referrals on these threads.... (-:  

     

     

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  • Brian Lawson Community moderator

    Yes, I agree with the separation into 2 issues but I believe they are related. Haven't been able to prove it yet.

    If 'Bridge, Open In ON1" can shake hands with ON1 Develop … and ON1 Browse can't… That is something for support and the engineers. I would think so but only they will know for certain.

    rewrite Browse using current Finder/Explorer tools I'm pretty sure that is what the program is doing now. How or when it connects the .on1 files to the edits database I don't know.

    Right now this all boils down to some (educated?) guesses on our part. All we can do is keep reporting our issues to support. With the new search tools coming next month it may be easier to identify when a photo looses its edits which might help in identifying why they get lost.

    I feel your pain. I don't like being forced to redo edits although the new version is usually better than what was lost. 😀 If I was a professional photographer this would be a lot more upsetting. You can Unfollow the discussion if you like. There's a button at the top of the page.

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  • Steven Kurzrok

    This has been a dealbreaker for me. If a program has deep and complex editing options but cant reliably save or retrieve my work- Then they have nothing. Moving and renaming files sometimes works and then does not. I have renamed my root directory without sucess and subdirectories without sucess, My .on1 files are all there but not seen. I am the OP of this thread and have submitted this to ON1 tech. Other than rapidly acknowledging that this is a bug, ->crickets. I have alot of work in on1 files that I cannot be confident will be there from day to day.

    I know they are a small firm, but they should be "all hands on deck" with this and communicating with the user base. The silence here is deafening.

     

    Steve

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  • Brian Lawson Community moderator

    Other than rapidly acknowledging that this is a bug, ->crickets. What do you expect from them before the engineers have a fix? If they have acknowledged there is a bug there really isn't any more support can do for us.

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  • Steven Kurzrok

    Brian,

    I know you are a techie, as am I. For a program which promotes itself as a DBMS, this is a crucial bug and unless fixed eliminates its use for anything other than casual use. Anyone using this for their business, or for a large collection risks losing their most recent shoot or worse, a lifetime of work. This apparently is not a new bug since others apparently have reported this before and On1 has not fixed it. I would think that a substantial flaw in their DBMS would have alarm bells ringing in the company and a rapid fix in the works. I would also think they would rapidly reassure their clients that help is on the way with an effective fix. The fact that they are not doing so is very worrisome. I don't want to give up on Photo Raw, but I can't risk all the work I put into my photography.

    I am going to again ask ON1 Zen desk to review this thread and see if we get any helpful response.

    Steve

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  • David Tillett
    Great answers

    Lightroom can also suffer from corrupted catalogues, so same situation can happen with other applications, and may be triggered by events outside the application itself.  Whether or not On1 has more problems is difficult for me to say. I have used it for several years and only suffered one loss of edits. As a Mac user with a technical background I was able to recover by restoring from a Time Machine backup, a process I recorded in an earlier post.

    There are now two options for recovering from corruption of On1 database

    - On1 2022 introduced a backup/restore mechanism so if one takes regular backups one can restore from latest, and if sidecars are enabled they get used to update database with edits since backup taken

    - if sidecars are enabled then they allow rebuilding database from scratch, using things like album keywords allows albums to be rebuilt fairly easily, though presets etc may need to be recreated. Or most can be restored from system backup like Time Machine.

    I did encounter some issues with backup/restore since database contains references to all files that have ever been browsed, and restoring a backup of a database that has been in use for a while can generate a lot of warnings about missing folders that were once included in a browse but have now been deleted. I am hoping that future releases of On1 will deal with this in a tidy manner.

    I have just got a new M1 iMac and decided to do a complete reinstall of everything rather than a migration. I let On1 rebuild its database from scratch using the sidecar files and have not lost any edits. I used album keywords to rebuild albums. I did cheat a bit and restored LUTS etc from clone of my original system. This cleared up the issue of missing folders in backup/restore and I now risk a regular backup/restore that keeps the database clean of deleted folders since only a few each time and they can easily be cleared.

     

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