Keywords erased, I'd like them back
Hello,
I post this in french, it's easier for me.
J'ai voulu supprimer des mots-clés inutiles, mais avec le temps de réaction d'ON1 pour passer d'un mot-clé à un autre j'en ai supprimé un précédent dans la liste au lieu de celui que je voulais supprimer. Comme "cmd-Z" ou "Undo" ne fonctionne pas dans ce cas, je me (vous) demande comment récupérer ce mot-clé et le ré-attribuer aux photos concernées.
J'ai une sauvegarde qui date de dimanche dernier (sept 11), à partir de laquelle je pourrais retrouver l'ancienne liste de mots-clés avec les photos liées, mais si je l'ouvre je vais sans doute perdre toutes les photos rajoutées depuis + ajustements, mots-clés et géotags attribués.
Auriez-vous une solution ?
Merci !
Edit: je viens par précaution de faire une sauvegarde de l'état actuel, donc comment, si c'est possible, récupérer les données effacées dans celle-ci et y coller celles de la sauvegarde de dimanche ?
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Une fois qu'un mot-clé est supprimé des photos, il n'y a aucun moyen pour le programme de trouver les photos et de les rajouter. Je ne pense pas qu'une restauration mettra à jour toutes les photos dont le mot-clé a été supprimé, mais cela ne devrait rien faire de mal de l'essayer.
Il est possible que la seule façon de résoudre ce problème maintenant soit de rechercher manuellement les photos et de rajouter le mot-clé.-------------
Once a keyword is deleted from the photos, there is no way for the program to find the photos and add it back. I don't believe a restore is going to update all of the photos the keyword was removed from but it shouldn't hurt anything to try it.
It's possible the only way to fix this now is to manually find the photos and add the keyword back.0 -
Thanks Rick!
First, I don't know which photos having the deleted keyword are. Second, if I go to previous backup (09-11-2022), it says all my work made in actual backup (09-14-2022) will be lost.
Anyway, it is only a little problem for me; the big one is you can't Undo just after deleting a keyword.
Some softs, as Apple Photos I avoid to use, maybe iMovie or Final Cut, allows you to merge two libraries so you get a new one upgraded adding missing elements in 1 from 2.
Sorry my english, I presume you'll understand.
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Yes, I know you don't know which photos have the deleted keyword, that's why the program can't just undo the delete.
Yes, if you restore from Sept 11, any work done after that will be lost.
You can import metadata to Photo Raw if you want to add keywords, but that won't assign them to any photos, it just adds them to the list.
Your English is good enough!
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I believe that Keywords on in the .ON1 file. So in theory they should be able to be restored /accessed from that. If you are saving ON1 files when you save edits to a photo, they should allow keyword recovery.
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You could find all the work done after 9/11 and save the .on1 files somewhere. Perform the Restore then move those .on1 files back where they came from and you should not loose any work.
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Lou, the keywords have already been deleted. That's the problem, they aren't just removed from the database, they're removed from the sidecars as well.
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I am unclear about that. How did they get deleted from all the .ON1 files unless Subias edited every photo after removing the keywords from the database? Are you saying that if I remove a keyword from the database, ON1 will find every photo that included that keyword and remove it from the corresponding ON1 file? That does not sound right. Maybe I am just not understanding the issue. Besides your suggestion about restoring from an older backup, saving all the ON1 files with the keywords, then restoring from the new backup and copying those ON1 files back to where they belong seems like a reasonable solution (unless those files are scattered all over the drive).
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Are you saying that if I remove a keyword from the database, ON1 will find every photo that included that keyword and remove it from the corresponding ON1 file? Yes, that is how the program works. Since the .on1 files are used to update the database (think about moving an edited photo to a new machine) the keywords must be removed from them or else they would just reappear.
Besides your suggestion about restoring from an older backup… That isn't exactly right. The .on1 files would have to be saved before the restore. Otherwise, they would be overwritten and the edits lost before they got saved. The process is
- Make copies of the .on1 sidecars for the images edited after 11 Sept.
- Perform the Restore. This should restore the Keywords but loose the newer edits.
- Move the .on1 files back to their original folders so the edits get restored.
There is a hole in the system though. If one of the newer edited photos also contains any of the deleted Keywords the keywords will be gone again. Perhaps intermediary step 2.5 is needed.
2.5 Create an Album of the photos containing the restored Keywords.
4. Compare the file count for the Album with a search of the restored Keywords. If there is a difference the sidecar restore did re-delete the keyword(s) from those images. They would have to be found with a visual comparison of the Album and Search results to ID the missing images. Add the keyword to those images manually.
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Several issues. How does ON1 find all those sidecar files to delete the keywords? What if I move the files so ON1 cannot find them? Or if I copy the ON1 files somewhere else, let ON1 remove the keywords from the ON1 files in their original locations, then put the uncorrected ON1 files back? Will it know that the keywords it deleted have been restored? Now if I edit one of those files will it see that the keyword is there and add it back to its database? In other words if it has an ON1 file and the data for that same file in its database, and they are different, how will it reconcile them? If it would use the ON1 file or if it would only update the differences into its database, that process would work without having to backup and restore etc. No need to worry about old files and new files.
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How does ON1 find all those sidecar files to delete the keywords? It maintains an internal database that also tracks edits and metadata tying everything together. Kind of like a double-entry book keeping system. Update one side and the other side gets updated as well.
What if I move the files so ON1 cannot find them? Then the program forgets about the photo and the .on1 sidecar is the only source for edits & metadata.
Or if I copy the ON1 files somewhere else, let ON1 remove the keywords from the ON1 files in their original locations, then put the uncorrected ON1 files back? Then the keywords would be restored to the internal database as well. This is what happens when you copy the image and its sidecar to a new system. That's how I'm able to see what you've done when people send me an image edit problem to diagnose.
Photo RAW's DAM is built around the Browser. Whenever you open a folder in the Browser the program looks for updates to any of the sidecar files and updates the internal database to sync everything. This is how external changes to the sidecars are found.
Whenever you make a change through the program both the internal database and the sidecar files are updated and remain in sync.
You can see this for yourself by opening an .on1 file in a text editor. Find some text you've entered in the program, your name or the copyright info would be a good choice, and change it. Go back to Photo RAW and look at that metadata in the Browser and you'll see the changes. Edit it back in Photo RAW then look at the sidecar again. You'll see it has been corrected there as well. You will see the same changes in a .xmp file if there is one for that image.
Note that removing a keyword from all images but not deleting it from the Keyword List will not cause the Keyword List to be updated with its removal. That keyword will stay in the list and just not find any photos. Deleting it from the Keyword List will remove it from the database and all sidecar files which is what happened to Subias.
I worked with the engineers right after they added the ability to import Keywords from Lightroom. There were some major bugs and I learned a lot about how all that works. I wrote up an article about managing the Keyword List that is a little bit dated now but still has some useful info if you're interested.
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It seems quite difficult (to me) despite your help, so I'll remain with the lost keywords, for my home hobby use it's not so important.
Thanks to all of you.
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The new Keywords AI in the upcoming 2023 might be helpful.
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I don't think Keywords AI will retrieve deleted keywords.
But am I stupid ? I imagine a simple way to get the photos which keyword have been deleted:
As I have many saved databases, maybe open a recent one (august i.e) alt+ON1, choose it, look at the lost keyworded photos, then close without saving and re-open alt+ON1 and choose the latest save (09-14-2022), next time I'll open ON1it should open the latest. Right or stupid ?
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No, it won't retrieve deleted keywords but it may make a suggestion for that same keyword or something very similar. You can then use the search feature to find all photos the AI has identified with that keyword and re-add them yourself.
You cannot "open" an old database. All you can do is restore to that database's point in time which, as has been noted, will delete all the edits made after that time. Not what you want to do. It is neither right nor stupid, more like a desperate grasping at a straw. 😉
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Maybe I am just confused by all the restores/changes, etc. It still seems like one could save all the files (and sidecars) that were edited/changed in the short time (after 9/11) after the backup - there should not be too many of them. Now restore to the point where keywords were intact (you could JUST restore the ON1 database and the photos with their sidecars - not the whole computer). Now copy all the newly edited files back where they should be and ON1 should see them as new files and add them to its database. Since all the editing is in the sidecar files the ON1 database should get updated with those new edits. but all the files from before the update will not be touched because they AND the database will be in agreement - WITH the keywords still in both.
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No, you're not confused. I was, I missed what you were saying, sorry.
You are right. The only difference between what you propose and what I proposed is that you are copying the image files and the sidecars. I was just taking the .on1 files and for the exact same reasons. You said it a bit more clearly. :)
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What I can't understand, is the benefit of saving (backups) if restoring one of them will erase all the new ones you made some time after; in my mind having backups should allow you to use one of them without erasing.
I thought copying my latest backup on an external drive, then open the one where remains the keywords deleted and ad-hoc photos, see the keyworded photos, quit ON1 backup august, re open choosing the backup september copied in external disc. Why all of the workflow made between august and september should be lost ?
Something wrong for me, I'm missing.
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When you make a backup it copies the internal database. Which ever version you "open" (you still cannot open them; I'll get to that in a minute.) replaces what ever the program was using. It gets replaced because you can't open them, they have to be restored. I have to assume from what you said you were told by tech support that this will cause the program to update the .on1 files to match what the database contains.
I can't justify how the program was built, all I can do is explain how it works. You'll have to talk to them if you think this is a bug or if you want to know why it works that way. Justify why you think that it's a bug.
The backup files are just .zip files with a different extension. The program zips up your user data when you make a backup. If you want to see what gets backed up you can add the .zip extension to one of them then open it with your favorite zip program and take a look at its contents.
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I only understand half you kindly explain; as you suggest I add .zip, but I just can see the 5 first files as on your screenshot, each of them contains .ldb files. Nevermind, I stop investigating (I haven't contacted support and for me it's not necessary).
Anyway the feature I wished is as in Apple Photos: go to an old photolibrary, i.e 2020, Photos opens all my 2020 and previous images, keywords, gps etc; now quit Photos, open my 2022 photolibrary, all is ok, nothing lost.
Thanks for your help !
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Backups work the same whether you are backing up your photo data/edits using ON1 or whether your are backing up your entire disk drive. They allow you to save the data as it was AT THE POINT IN TIME THE BACKUP WAS MADE. So if you backup your ON1 database and then work on photos (new or existing) the changes will will not be in the data that was backed up.
This can be especially unfortunate if you backup your whole disk and then add new data. That new data was not on the backup. You CAN make a second backup which includes that new data, then restore the backup with the old data, and THEN try to get just SOME of the data from the newer backup. But that may not work if you are ONLY backing up the ON1 database.
Maybe, if you can separate the 5 separate files in that ON1 backup and only restore a file that has your keywords but NOT all the edits made on new files, that could solve your issue. But that would require keywords to be saved separately from edit data. I have no idea if that is the case.
Maybe you can take solace in having a tool like ON1 and no longer have to make all your photo changes/edits using the equipment and chemicals of a darkroom. People who got into photography after the start of the digital camera age have no idea what it used to be like.
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Maybe, if you can separate the 5 separate files in that ON1 backup… The files are not in the backup. Neither the image files nor their .on1 or .xmp sidecar files. What is in the backup is the database that stores the edits and metadata. Restoring from it is an all or nothing proposition.
Those 5 entries are not files either, they are folders. The backed up files are inside them. NDService is where the database(s) reside. I think.
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